Home

Previous Entry | Next Entry

Robin Hood 3x09 Review: A Dangerous Deal

  • Jun. 4th, 2009 at 2:14 PM
Guy BW Sad

I make no claims about being rational or balanced here.  I love this episode. It broke me, but I love it. Except, of course, for the parts that I hate. And I hate the parts I hate as much as I love the parts I love. Therefore, expect flailing and ranting in equal measure.

Word Count: 7,876 (so be warned)

Wow. It has occurred to me that I'm pretty much writing a full length, in depth analysis essay every week...  And I was so happy to be teaching school instead of attending it.  At least I get to choose my own subjects, now. 


Guy, Meg, and Unexpected Redemption.

It is difficult for me to know where to begin in talking about this.  Because really, it shouldn't have worked.  With this show's track record, an episode with the basic premise of "Guy gets stuck in a cell next to a teenage girl who teaches him Valuable Life Lessons" should have me foaming at the mouth in rage. But it doesn't.  What follows is my attempt to explain why.

First of all, Holliday Grainger did a fantastic job making Meg sympathetic and interesting.  This episode would not have worked without Meg being exactly as she was: impertinent, naive, and young on the one hand; quick-thinking, kind, and selfless on the other.  Though she was quite young, she had such obvious potential for more, and I am sorry we didn't get to see more of her.  From the look of her clothes, and her father's, she is at least a little wealthy, which goes a long way toward explaining her somewhat spoiled, entitled attitude in her first couple of scenes with Guy.  Coming from a well-off family also might explain why she is so comfortable speaking in her own defense to Isabella.  (Though I like to think she's buttering Isabella up just a little with the "women should be in charge" bit.  Clever, Meg.)

Meg also shows herself to have a strong sense of loyalty early on.  She didn't have to follow Thornton and Isabella into the castle. She did that on her own, and I like to think she did it as a way of repaying Isabella for freeing her. No one was paying much attention to Meg in all of the confusion, and she could have slipped away with no one the wiser.  Instead, she very vocally tries to help Isabella in front of Thornton, who has already showed himself to be a throughly terrifying man. And then, clever girl that she is, she offers Thornton the one things that she's betting he'll want more than revenge on his wife:  riches.  (How Meg knew about the treasure and how it remained untouched by grave robbers, I have no idea. This is one of those "the show needed it to be that way" things, and I'm content to let it be.)  

One of the things that I think makes this episode work so well is that both Guy and Meg have undergone some pretty fundamental changes by the end, and each learns from the other.  If Guy had been the only one to change, the story would have felt contrived and hollow. 

When Meg is first brought to the dungeon, she's all spitfire and indignation, with a touch of entitlement.  She is very young, very scared, and very bitter, and it shows.  She complains childishly about men, throws around "Isabella is a friend of mine" as if this makes her important, and seems to take great joy in telling Guy he's small.  I think she does all of this to cover up her fear, but it also serves the purpose of letting Guy see himself and his history from an outsider's point of view - something he hasn't been confronted with for a long time, and a purpose that Meg continues to serve throughout the episode.  Guy's initial responses consist of typical Gisborne snarling until Meg brings up the fact that he is going to be executed.  He almost looks surprised here.  I thought that he'd always known that Isabella was going to execute him eventually, but perhaps he wasn't aware that his sister had set a date.   Still, not one to let his vulnerability show for long, he maliciously reminds her, "You might not be far behind."  This visibly rattles her, and though she has enough fire left to tell him to go to hell, she doesn't seem to want to talk any more.  The two of them, having exchanged opening salvos, retreat to their separate corners.  

The second time we see them, nothing has changed.  He's still grumpy, and she's still a wee bit annoying.  (And I say that with nothing but affection for her...) Meg has probably never been treated so roughly before, and she's complaining about it loudly, much to Guy's dismay.  He's never been a very patient with weakness, his or other people's, and at this point, she's just a pathetic girl whining about her shackles who needs to shut it. It's her reaction to his annoyance that sets her apart.  Guy lashes out at her, and she's not put off  She keeps trying to talk to him.  That right there makes her different from almost everyone else Guy has ever known.  He's gone through life thinking that he can protect himself from uncomfortable conversations with a few forceful words, and it's almost always worked.  So, for me, the moment when things start to change between them is when Meg says, "You're here, I'm here… what else are we going to do?"  There's a little catch in her voice when she says this that I love so much.  She's still frightened, but trying very hard to be cheeky and pragmatic.  And what does she choose to talk about with the touchy, emotionally unbalanced black-clad man in the next cell?  Something light and inconsequential and safe?   Of course not.  She pushes him about the sister who threw him in the dungeon in the first place.  The girl has some nerve, and I love her for it.  Guy defends his decision to marry Isabella off, actually articulating his classic Gisborne spin on it, which, by the way, the fandom has had pegged for a long time.  It's basically, "She should have made the best of it."  But that's old news.  What's new is that Guy's conviction seems to waver for just a moment when Meg comes right back at him with, "You sold her to a monster!" Even though he's quick to fall back on, "You know nothing about it," it sounds more like a lame excuse than a deeply held belief.  (I tend to agree with the fandom consensus that Isabella has never told Guy just how much and in what way Thornton hurt her. It was probably too shameful, too humiliating for her to put it into words.)  The very end of this scene is so telling. Guy, even having dismissed Meg so roughly, does the first nice thing he's done all day.  He may not have water to share with her, but he does have knowledge, and that, he gives her.  I really like the idea of him knowing this little trick.  Something he picked up in the desert? Or perhaps an old soldier's trick? (That it also serves to shut her up is not lost on me.  Guy is clever, too.) Also, Meg sulkily doing as he advised her is too cute for words.   They've reached an uneasy truce.

By the time we get to the third scene in the dungeon, I believe that Meg is genuinely fascinated by him.  Though I am mesmerized as ever by Richard's fantastic acting in this scene, I also can't get over how great Holliday is at riding the line between curiosity and pity. She really wants to understand what makes him work the way he does because, let's face it, most people in Guy's position would not be reacting like he is to his impending death. A lot of what Meg says seems, on the surface, incredibly impertinent and tactless, but I think Guy doesn't need tact or carefully chosen words.  In fact, he needs someone who will ask him, point blank, if he feels sorry for all of the terrible things he's done, point out that no one is sorry to see him go, and remind him of how very empty his life must be.  For the first time, there's someone calling him on all of the things he's done who he can't send away or ignore.  He's got no power over her, and he can't get away from the questions she's asking.  It's physically impossible.  He can do his classic "I can't help what people think of me" thing, but she's not buying it, and from the tone of his voice, he's not really buying it either any more.  And finally, we have world weary Guy, who knows about things like how to knock the maggots off your bread when you're really hungry and maggoty bread is all you have, doing something nice for her.  This is BIG. She just told him he was a terrible person, and he's FEEDING HER. When he doesn't have to.  Incidentally, I love that Guy's humanity first starts to manifest again by fulfilling a really simple human need.   It's not gold that he shares with her, or fine clothes, or anything else of value.  It's a piece of bread.  And it's gorgeously symbolic in its simplicity.  (The English major in me might be drooling just a little over all of this.) The significance of this action is apparently not lost on Meg, and she echoes Luke Skywalker and tells Guy there must be some good in him… And then… he gently pokes fun at her with the "I thought you hated men."  (That exchange is so cute I can't think about it with devolving into fangirly flailing.) A few hours ago, she was vowing eternal hatred of men, and now all she can manage is an utterly unconvincing "I do...  I do." Meg's changing too.   

I can say this for Meg: when she makes up her mind about a person, she jumps in with both feet.  When Isabella comes to release her, Meg is already speaking up on Guy's behalf, perhaps because she believes that Isabella's lenience will extend to Guy as well.  Also, the Guy that Meg has gotten to know is quite a different person than the Guy Isabella thinks she knows.  Unfortunately, I don't think that Isabella is ever going to get to know the "nice" version of her brother.  Meg got to see him precisely because she was a stranger, and Guy didn't have years of baggage and games to get in the way of being honest with her.  Incidentally, this scene tells us a lot more about Isabella than it does Meg.  I can understand Isabella being upset that Meg is apparently warming to Guy... she's in the middle of dealing with Thornton, which is, in a way, Guy's fault in the first place.  No wonder she doesn't want impressionable girls around him.  Look what he did to her.

Meg continues to show that she really is a nice, loyal girl when she tries to bring Guy food in the dungeon.  My notes on this scene are sadly lacking, mostly because every time I watch it I nearly have heart failure because it's just so good.  The surprise on Guy's face when she comes in with the plate of food is heartbreak number one.  He'd probably assumed that Meg was off with Isabella, being spoon-fed hatred for men in general and him specifically.  I've thought a lot about why he refuses what she brings him, and I think I've come to the conclusion that he knows it's dangerous for her to be even this kind to him, and he doesn't want her to get into trouble.  And then... one of the best exchanges in this history of this show forever and ever. "You've done more than enough already,"  Guy tells her, and Meg really doesn't get how much of an effect she's having on him. So (Oh, happy day...) he gets to spell it out for her.  He gets to tell her about Marian.  Guy is grateful to her for making him think about Marian, for helping him to remember that she did see good in him. And, I think he's grateful for the chance to tell all of this to another person.  Meg is, in some ways, like a confessor here.  The way his voice breaks when he says "I destroyed her.  I destroyed everything…" Wow. Just... wow.  This is the admission and guilt and shouldering of responsibility we've all been waiting for.

On the heels of that scene, it's understandable that Guy is genuinely confused when Meg shows up with the keys. He really has no idea what's going on, and his confusion is almost sweet. That she would risk so much for him is unthinkable.  Because no one else ever has.  And now this girl, to whom he's just told her his darkest secret - that he destroyed the only person who saw goodness in him - is standing at the door to his cell with keys in hand.  People just don't work like that in Guy's experience.  You let them see you weak, you let them know your secrets, and they will use them and hold them over you and make you feel like the lowest creature imaginable, but they certainly won't help you.  But Meg does.  And in that moment, that makes her the center of his universe. From now on, Guy does everything in his power to protect this girl who helped him when she didn't have to.  He fully intends to fight off the guards and let her escape, and barring that, he's immediately trying to defend her to Isabella, promising that Meg didn't know what she was doing.  There's also a brilliant Meg moment here that I didn't catch the first time around because of all of the other noise. When Isabella says, "I'm on my own," in the midst of her "I can't trust anyone but me" speech, Meg shoots back with, "You put yourself there, Isabella!" WHOA.  What does Meg HAVE? The "Standing up to Gisbornes" gene?  Whatever it is, I love it. She looks like the enormity of what she's just gotten herself into dawns on her as Isabella leaves, but I don't see any regret on her face.  She could have pled for her own life.  Meg is clever enough that she could have spun a story about Guy beguiling her, and Isabella would have believed it.  But she doesn't.

The scene with the "execution" made me so amazingly happy and so terribly upset that it is... hard for me to be coherent about it. I love Guy here.  I love his eyes-forward, resigned-to-death expression juxtaposed with Meg's very understandable and well-played fear.  I love the calm, gentle way he tells her, "When it comes, it will be very quick."*  This is his repayment for what she's done for him.  A calm voice and some much-needed reassurance in the last moments of her life.  I love that he lowers himself before Isabella at the chopping block.  That, I have a feeling, was a Big Deal.  I think that Guy was ready to go out silent and defiant, holding onto some of his self-respect.  He wasn't intending to give Isabella the satisfaction of seeing him falter.  It took a lot for him to beg.  But he did it.  For Meg. And Guy is still yelling about Meg's innocence even as he's forced down. (Side note: The "Who is this and what has he done with Gisborne?" look on Robin's face as he watches all of this is priceless.)  And for the first time, Robin agrees with Guy.  (I wonder if he was planning on just saving Meg, or if the thought of rescuing Guy passed through his mind as well.  Also, way to stop the execution and then fail to protect the innocent girl they were planning to execute, Robin. What was the plane? Leave her in life in Guy's weaponless hands?)  Complaining about Robin aside, there are so many really sweet things packed into the next few seconds... the way Guy takes Meg's hands to help her off the platform, the little giddy, relieved smile on Meg's face... She is so full of life there.  And then, because the show can't handle having an awesome female character for too long, and because they wouldn't know how to deal with the fallout of Meg sticking around and Guy having to deal with her when they're not about to die, she gets stabbed.  (So, female characters this series are useful as brainless love interests, overly sexualized villains, and Teachers of Important Lessons.  Once they have served one of these purposes, if their further existence would complicate things too much, they get offed.  I... really hate this show sometimes.)  And what's more, she gets stabbed protecting him.  For the second time, she puts her life in danger for his sake, and dies for it. *sigh* Sorry, Meg.  You really were awesome.  Too awesome, it seems.

The last scene in the forest is one of the more beautifully filmed things I've seen on Robin Hood.  The dark greens of the trees and the surface of the water, the way the light casts everything with a little bit of gold... Others have compared some of those shots to a Pre-Raphaelite painting, and I'm inclined to agree. It's that pretty. And then... there's the way Guy treats her in this scene that really shows how much he's changed.  He handles her so gently... just look at the unsure, hesitant way he kisses her, the way his hand trembles a little when he passes his hand over her eyes to close them… I'm getting choked up just thinking about it. I feel so terrible for Guy in this scene.  I see the Marian parallel, and I love it, but  I think he's mourning for both of them in equal measure.  For Marian, who he didn't get to cry for, and for Meg, yet another girl that died because she was close to him. And he couldn't stop it.  It's a terrible lesson, really, and one that I wish he hadn't had to learn so soon.  Sometimes, even when he does the right thing, people still die.  And it's that's a hard thing to know.  We're left with the image of Guy actually crying, wracked with grief over a girl who he didn't even know the morning of the day before.   

There are logistical problems with Meg's death, by the way. If they could get all the way out into the forest with her walking and not bleeding out… she should NOT be dead.  And what possible reason did he have for running to the forest? Why not... you know... a doctor?  Guy might be recognizable, but Meg's not.  He could have banged on the door and run away.  Or used a hood.  Those are surprisingly affective in this universe. Of course, all of this is a moot point since Meg had to die anyway for reasons that have nothing to do with logic or coherent storytelling. 

*(I have a narrative kink for romances that blossom when both parties are about to be executed.  When I was in high school, my English teacher gave us an assignment to write a "missing scene" from A Tale of Two Cities.  My friend wrote what amounted to an amazing Sydney Carton/little-seamstress-who-has-no-name-in-canon fanfic that gave her a name and a back story and has made that pairing my ToTC OTP forever.  Lucie? Lucie who?)


Isabella and the Epic Feminist Fail of DOOM. (Yes, there will be capslock here. I apologize. I tried to remain calm. It didn't work.)

Usually, I refrain from writing about the feminist fail of this show because writing feminist critique of Robin Hood is like shooting DEAD fish in a barrel.  That's right... the fish aren't even moving.  And you know what? The barrel is FULL TO THE BRIM WITH DEAD FISH. No water.  However, this episode was asking for it. (Beware the capslock rage in this section. I tried to control it and failed miserably.)

I always wondered if we were going to get to meet Thornton.  And now that we have, my heart aches for Isabella more than ever.  He is far worse than anything I could have imagined. I was expecting a caricature - a much older jealous man, perhaps, or a loutish warrior type, built like a linebacker... but no. Thornton is smart and commanding and terrifying.  Honestly.  I have to applaud the actor that they got to play him.  He managed to scare me more than the Sheriff, Prince John, and every other villain on this show put together. I also have a great deal of respect for Lara Pulver in this episode. Her reactions to Thornton and her eventual metamorphosis into a truly ruthless villain were both really impressive.

I am ready to believe that Isabella meant to be a good Sheriff. She meant what she said to Robin in her bedroom. She intends to be the best Sheriff that Nottingham has ever seen, and if her freeing Meg was any indication, she very well might have been if Thornton hadn't showed up and spooked her.  Yes, freeing Meg was a bit of a publicity stunt, but I really do believe that Isabella intended good things for the people of Nottingham, and she had the confidence and the poise to make things different. However, the second Thornton shows up, all of that confidence and self assurance are gone, and she's staring at him like a frightened deer. Just listen to the panic and desperation in her first "get off of me." Thornton is terrifying for several reasons.  First of all, he has the ability to take from her the very choice position into which she has very skillfully maneuvered herself.  Second, he is very clearly a sadistic rapist.  Honestly, I am a little surprised that this "kid's show" got away with alluding to it as blatantly as they did.  Lines like Thornton's "It's time I taught you some respect" with the single tear rolling down Isabella's face, or his "Small dark room" speech were quite powerful, but really hard for me to watch.  After some thought, I've realized that Thornton's obsession with having complete respect and immediate obedience in both action and spirit explains a lot about Isabella.  It explains how she's able to flatter with such ease, slipping like a chameleon between Robin and Guy and Prince John. Also, sadly, it explains why even one perceived slight or threat, one instance of disloyalty on Meg's part, or on Robin's, will set her off.  After living so long with Thornton, sadly, that's the way her mind is wired now.  Even the smallest insult is reason for swift, definitive punishment.  I don't think, though, that she is completely cowed by him.  In the brief moment when she sees Robin hiding in the trees at the burial mound, her confidence seems to return.  The Isabella who says, "You never know when your luck is going to turn" with irony dripping from her voice is no frightened woman.  And why is she suddenly different?  Because she knows someone is there to help her, that she's not alone.  Whatever she may think about Robin, she trusts that he will not let Thornton hurt her.

However, she has no such assurances in her last scene with her husband. At the beginning of the episode, she had him at the point of her knife, and she was paralyzed by fear. By the end, he has pushed her beyond fear, and she can finally use her ability to turn herself into a sweet, submissive woman as a deadly weapon against him.  We've seen Isabella do the "I'm just a silly woman, and I'll put myself in your hands" thing before, but this is the ultimate expression of it.  For a moment, I was worried that Thornton was going to stay around for a few episodes with Isabella cowering timidly at his side until Robin took care of him once and for all.  With that in mind, I am SO GLAD she killed him herself.  As a character, she needed to do it instead of having Robin or some other man kill him for her. And Robin calling her on it? I HATE HIM SO MUCH FOR IT. Her "first murder" MY ASS.

This brings me to the part that makes me angry.  The audience has seen the way that Thornton treats Isabella.  We know how much he terrorized her, and we know this is why she has problems trusting Robin, or anyone, for that matter.  The way Robin handles her is exactly the wrong way. He puts himself in the position of being just another man giving her orders.  He sneaks into her bedroom (a place where Isabella already has ample reason to feel vulnerable and unprotected) and pretty much threatens her.  Telling her "If I wanted to kill you, you'd already be dead" and if she won't agree to be his friend, "You'll find out what it means to be my enemy" are not the way to get Isabella to trust him and work with him.  Also, when Isabella tells him she wants to be a good Sheriff, wants to do the right thing, what does Robin do?  Support her?  Tell her, "That's great.  I can definitely support you in that.  I'm so glad you care about the people of Nottingham"?  No.  he tells her, "No.  It will never work."  Way to be encouraging of the slightly psychotic woman trying to do the right thing.  And why won't it work?  Because Prince John appointed her.  Wait a second.  Prince John is Richard's regentHe must have legitimately appointed dozens of people to important positions during his time in power.  Are all of them going to fall from grace when Richard returns as well?  It seems to me that Robin is threatening to speak against her specifically, which is a really horrid thing to do. I'm actually really glad she cut the rope. Robin deserved it, and it was a smart thing to do.  When she's not scared out of her wits, Isabella is a very intelligent woman.

I think that one of Robin's problems is that he's not taking Isabella seriously.  He laughs a little bit as he gets up off of the stones and walks away after she cuts the rope, and he seems quite glib, as if he thinks it's some type of game that they're playing.  I have to give Robin some credit.  In the next scene where the outlaws are in the courtyard watching Meg's trial, Robin seems genuinely interested in how Isabella is going to act as Sheriff.  He even defends her to Kate and talks about the possibility of having a Sheriff on their side like it's a real possibility in his mind.  This... placates me somewhat, but not completely.  It simply shows that Robin's awful treatment of Isabella comes from ignorance and immaturity, not from purposefully trying to be cruel to her.  However, he is consistently making idiotic choices when it comes to her, which is surprising considering Robin seems quick enough to pick up on the fact that there will be no reasoning with Thornton.  You'd think that some of that would translate into the way he chooses to deal with Isabella, but it doesn't.

When he saves her from Thornton, she expresses real gratitude.  I don't think there was anything feigned about the way she hugs him.  Robin had an opportunity there.  An opportunity to comfort someone who was obviously in need of it.  No strings attached.  But, like Guy, Robin's help has conditions and stipulations.  He'll help her and work with her, but only if she helps him in his fight against Prince John.  In that moment, what was Isabella supposed to do?  Reject one of the only people who might be able to help her get rid of her sadistic husband who was at that very moment crashing through the trees calling for her in that angry, creepy way of his?  No.  So, of course, she agrees.  And perhaps she means it.

So, what changed between Isabella agreeing to help him and Isabella ambushing him in the Knight's Glade the next day?  I would argue that it's her scene with Little John that tips the balance. Isabella might be a little mad to think that she still has a chance with Robin after everything that has happened between them, but I think that she still has feelings for Robin.  So, Little John's blunt, gruff, "It's just business.  Robin only has eyes for Kate" pronouncements sting a little.  At first, I had a hard time wrapping my mind around why on earth John would say these things to her.  However, after extensive conversations with [info]gaelic_bohemian, I think I understand.  It still makes me so blindingly angry I can barely see straight.  John likes Kate as a person.  He really cares for her, and he thinks that she is the "right" choice, the obvious choice, for Robin.  Isabella is the "wrong" choice, and he's trying to scare her for Robin's sake. (And for Kate's as well.) He succeeds, in the process destroying any hopes Isabella may still have, and even worse, making it seem like Robin is using her, which is exactly the opposite of what Isabella needs at the moment.  (And don't even get me started on how wrong it is that we have an interesting female character making big choices because she can't have Robin's affection.  But... this was RH. What was I expecting?)

This brings me to the scene where Isabella sets up the ambush.  She's really quite clever here, and were it not for Much's wonderful and timely rescue, the gang would have been in serious trouble. This scene bothers me on so many levels.  When Robin says, "I offered you friendship," she says, "No, you threatened me." AND SHE'S RIGHT.  I... don't think there's any disputing that point.  Robin's been threatening her all episode, albeit with far less cruel intent than her husband has.  THEN, THE A&S^DYA(ISYDA*S&D^AS*&^ writers have Kate and Robin have their "Looks like you were right" conversation IN FRONT OF ISABELLA. HOW can he be thinking Kate was right?  Isabella calls him on his bullshit, and his response is, "Guess you were right, Kate..." THE LOGIC MAKES NO SENSE.  IT KILLS ME AND I AM COMING TO HATE THIS PART AS MUCH AS I LOVE GUY/MEG. AND THAT IS SAYING SOMETHING FOR SRS GUYS. [/capslock rage] And then, to top it all off, Kate tries to stop Robin from helping Isabella when Thornton is really obviously about to kill her, and Robin has the gall to get angry at Isabella for killing the bastard herself when he wasn't there to do anything about it.

And, from the way the show is structured, it seems that we're supposed to think all of this is all right.  I don't understand how we are supposed to cheer for Robin's treatment of her (and Kate's endless harping about how Isabella isn't to be trusted) when we have ample evidence that Isabella, despite her questionable choices, deserves our sympathy, not our condemnation. She is simply, like Guy, very easy to sway back to her old ways, especially when she feels threatened. 

 

Ok. Here's my problem in a nutshell. Robin tries (in really really failtastic ways) to give an abused woman the benefit of the doubt and see the good in her, Kate thinks she's bad news and says so, and by the end, said abused woman has killed her rapist husband and Robin has declared himself her enemy. Kate, who has been completely unsympathetic to Isabella throughout, gets to see Robin renounce the "other woman" cruelly and say "I told you so." FEMINIST FAIL.  Also MADE OF FAIL is Kate's "We finally get to see what kind of a woman she really is" line.  WHAT KIND OF WOMAN IS THAT, KATE?  A woman so damaged by years of abuse and being told that she was weak and stupid because she was a woman that she reacts almost instinctively out of fear and shame?  A woman whose only models of powerful men have also been assholes? (I'm including Robin, here.)  A woman who, like Guy, could have been a good person if given just a little bit of understanding? That brings me to REDEMPTION FAIL.  Haven't we seen that all any Gisborne needs is a little bit of trust and some kindness and they'll follow you anywhere? How can an episode all about GUY'S redemption be so calloused to Isabella? (I agree with [info]bookishy's "Scrap of Humanity" theory. The writers have decided that the Gisborne siblings have ONE scrap, and Guy was using it in this episode.)

And finally, Isabella's dress in the last scene is MADE OF SEX.  (Ok... so that's maybe a little feminist fail on my part, but she's stunning in it.) And I LIKE her threatening Robin. For a moment, I actually felt some glee in the dark parts of my soul as I contemplated the idea that she might kill him in the end. (I have gotten angrier and angrier on her behalf as I've re-watched and thought about this episode.)

 


The Much/Kate/Robin Triangle

This episode is filled with instances of Much getting pushed to the side in favor of Kate.  For instance, WHY is Kate the one who stays with Robin in the courtyard? Much obviously wants to be the one who stays, but she sends him away, and he does it because he seems unable to NOT do what she says. The look on his face is the look of a man who's heartbroken because the two people he cares for most in the world are choosing each other over him. (and not just romantically… I think it hurts him that it happens in everyday situations, too.)  Gosh darn it, Kate, let Much spend some time with his best friend once in a while! Treat Much Right!

 

So.. here's my interpretation of the Robin/Kate courtyard kiss: Kate doesn't want Robin working with Isabella because she's jealous.  She may not trust Isabella, but it's not some sort of keen sense of Isabella's questionable morality that has her worried.  It's because Isabella is another woman who Robin seems to want to work with. My reasoning? Robin asks her why she's so angry, her answer is to reach out and KISS HIM.  For all intents and purposes, she's saying "I'm angry because I want to kiss you, and you're paying attention to Isabella instead of me."  She's not angry because he can't see Isabella for "what she is."  She's angry because Robin might choose another woman over HER. I'm... oddly proud of Robin in this scene.  He doesn't encourage Kate.  In fact, he seems not really to know what to do, which is odd for Robin. 

My ever-so-slight respect for Robin continues when he tries to take Much's feelings into consideration.  He mentions Much to Kate in a "I don't want to hurt him" way that could be read in so many interesting ways.  (I could hear the Robin/Much camp rejoicing from my living room.)  Also, I think Robin looks just a tiny bit disappointed in Kate that she would be so cavalier about Much's feelings.  Unfortunately, Kate doesn't take the hint.  Robin leaves them together watching Thornton (I can't decide if Robin's trying to play matchmaker here), and Kate does very possibly the most insensitive thing I can think of.  The scene is... awkwardly written.  It sounds like a high school drama, not Robin Hood, with all the "I think he likes me."  However, Sam's face when she says it... is so sad I almost feel bad for mocking what's going on here.

 

I don't quite understand what we're supposed to take from Much forgetting his part in the heist while watching Robin and Kate fight off the guards.  Is this his moment of realization that they are "meant to be?" Is this him deciding that he'll speak to Robin?  I fear that that is exactly what we're supposed to take from it, and I don't like it one bit.  One, it was cheesy voiceover, and two, if "they look really neat fighting together," is reason for epic romance, then Tuck/Allan should be canon yesterday.

Much continues to break my heart in the scene where he leaves.  I really think this is his "I'm getting out of the way so they can be together" gesture, but I don't think it's just that.  I think it's an equal part "I don't need to be around for this, I can make my own way."  I quite like how this scene was shot, with the camera panning over each of the sleeping outlaws, giving us some great references for how the camp is set up, then with Much hefting his pretty shield and his sword and turning his back on the camp as the early morning light streams through the trees... Nice. Also, I agree with others who have said that Much's silence here is brilliant. No last speeches, no goodbyes spoken to those who can't hear him. He just leaves. And when he does come back, he doesn't want to be made a big deal of.  When Kate guesses what he was doing, he gives her a look that says, "Please don't tell…" and she doesn’t, which may just be the first smart thing she's done in regards to this whole mess. Robin is characteristically confused, and before anything can get resolved, Tuck is there announcing that "the plan" needs to be discussed. I hate how important conversations on this show are constantly interrupted by dumb plot.

So, what has changed by the end of the episode?  Much may have come back and saved his friends, but there's been no closure there.  Also, what has changed between Robin and Kate since she kissed him in the courtyard?   They're still living an incredibly dangerous life, which is the excuse that Robin gave her before. So, what new things has Robin seen in Kate other than her ability to "predict" Isabella's sudden but inevitable betrayal? He lists several adjectives to describe her, and the one that I can remember because it made no sense to me at the time is "compassionate."  Where in this episode does Kate demonstrate this? She's inconsiderate to Much, downright nasty about Isabella, and self-righteous to Robin.  I... don't know how that translates to compassion in any way, shape, or form. 

I... don't know what to do here.  It's like the writers don't even realize how what they're doing is coming across.  They write Kate as mean and petty and immature, and then they throw her into tender scenes with Robin like we're supposed to be happy about them getting together.  My mind boggles.  What's sad is, I was actually starting to like Kate before this week.  I really thought she'd grown.  But no. The instant she actively sets her sights on Robin, she's insufferable.



General Complaining and "Next Week on Robin Hood"

It annoys me that every character has been given, if not entire episodes, then at the very least entire scenes where they got to shine this season. Tuck was fantastic in his first episode and in the one with the Bible in English, and John got his gladiator episode. Much's affection for Kate has put him in the spotlight, though not in a terribly flattering way until this episode. Guy, the Sheriff, PJ, Isabella, and Kate all have ample screen time. Robin has his usual amount of dashing around and being heroic.  Who does that leave out? Allan. I challenge you to find a single episode where Allan is doing anything other than fighting, helping people sneak into the castle, or pulling a con.  He hasn't developed. He hasn't changed. You may point out the scene with Kate when they get captured, but as funny as it was, I would argue that scene was for Kate's development, not for his.

 

Also, Allan seems to be quite the "men are better, women are stupid" guy in this, doesn't he?  First, we have his "As if" moment in the courtyard at the beginning, then he's saying they'd be better off with a donkey… This isn't my Allan.  It's not the Allan who respected Djaq and Marian and thought they were competent people as well as women.  I HATE this show for using one of my favorite characters to bash women and make Robin look good in comparison, especially when Robin is really no better.  

 

All I ask for is ONE good Allan episode this time around. We got at least 10 of them last season. What happened?  Did the writers decide Allan had gotten his fair share of attention last season?  I suppose I should reserve judgment until the series is over, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

The one brilliant Allan moment of the episode:  "He was the queen of Sheba last week." ILU ALLAN.

 

And some more minor nitpicks...

Didn't they use the "scare people off by making them think it's a ghost/curse" ploy last week? I mean… I understand, Viking treasure and all… it's really cool and Tuck and explain about Valhalla and Allan can ask about it being near Norwich, but seriously folks.  Get a new plot device.

 

CGI axe is CGI. And from where Robin is standing… (On Guy's side of the stage, if I can tell?) why did it get knocked to Guy's side of center when Robin hit it with the second arrow?  Even if I'm shaky on the logistics, There is some physics fail here.  I can feel it.

 

SINCE WHEN does Sherwood have Mirkwood-sized spiders that build Mirkwood-sized spider webs? Because Isabella needs to fall through one of them. That's why. *facepalm*

 

Next week:

WEE!ROBIN!!!11!! And not-so-wee!Guy!  I'm holding my breath for wee!Much, Will, or Marian… or wee!Allan and his con artist family passing through the area, or wee!Djaq on a vacation from the Holy Land with her family...  (Ok, so some of those are a bit far fetched.  Stranger things have happened.)

 

I think I'm poised to like the casting of the parents.  However, I'm curious.  Did we see Robin's mum? Or get mention of her? "Mysterious man in hood" says he knows the truth about how Robin's parents (note the plural) died, but wee!Robin only yells about his FATHER being in the burning house.  I'm pretty certain the lovely dark-haired woman was Guy's mother, so where was Lady Huntingdon?

I'm not sure I'm ok with the Locksley/Gisborne love triangle version 1.0. that they seem to be setting up here.  It could go very ridiculous places very quickly. If Guy and Robin are related, (half-brothers?) I... won't quit watching, but I'll be very upset if it's not handled exactly right.  You hear me, Show?  You managed to turn a terrible premise into a fantastic character arc... let's see you do it two weeks straight.

 

Question for discussion: Who's the figure in the hooded cloak? Guy's father?  Not dead all these years? The undead Sheriff, wanting to make trouble? (Finding out... whatever the big secret is will surely mess with both of them, which would be just fine by Vasey.)  Someone new?



Comments

( 23 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]jedi_of_urth wrote:
Jun. 5th, 2009 02:19 am (UTC)
reply part 1
You write about it all much more intellectually than I usually do and I look forward to your reviews, so I’m glad you write such long and articulate posts, makes me feel like I should sound smart when I reply to them (and apparently makes me very very ranbly, especially with all the quoting), so my multi reply thoughts on your thoughts.

He's gone through life thinking that he can protect himself from uncomfortable conversations with a few forceful words, and it's almost always worked.

I think there’s something telling that the defining relationships of his life are with people who keep going, be it Vasey, Marian, Isabella, or Meg they’re the ones who don’t entirely let his big scary large man yelling stop them. And taking that Vasey knew Guy wouldn’t actually do anything to him on the rare occasions Guy did get grumpy with him, the others are all women (who all have a lot in common besides that). I think this could say something about Guy’s ability to relate to people being influenced by gender but it’s only a half formed thought so I’m not going to expand on it, just throw it out there.

He's gone through life thinking that he can protect himself from uncomfortable conversations with a few forceful words, and it's almost always worked.

Particularly now that we’ve seen Isabella around Thornton I’m going to agree. Because I think in running away she was looking to make a new start and to get away from all the things of her life with Thornton. Another instance of her and Guy being at opposite ends of the story, he would need the explanation before he could apologize but she needs the apology before she’s going to be comfortable enough around him to talk about what happened to her. She’d need to know that he was a safe place to talk about those kind of things and wouldn’t just shrug her off as he did all of her pleas for an apology, but Guy isn’t blessed with much imagination, particularly if young-Guy saw Thornton as a decent enough person reevaluating that 17 years later is going to need some reason to do so.

I love that Guy's humanity first starts to manifest again by fulfilling a really simple human need.

That’s the sort of thing that could actually make you think these writers are smarter than they usually appear. Because yeah, starting with something so basic to build this arc on is the stuff symboligists love and typically goes over my head until someone like you points it out and makes me go O.O. I am not an English major, and could never manage to do symbolism even back when I had to take English classes, but just sometimes, when they’re pointed out I can get them and see it like I get this.

Also, the Guy that Meg has gotten to know is quite a different person than the Guy Isabella thinks she knows. Unfortunately, I don't think that Isabella is ever going to get to know the "nice" version of her brother.

Very much agree, and sadly so. Not that it’s all or even mostly her fault, Guy refuses to show that kind of vulnerability to Isabella, as it’s all tangled up with his own self loathing and unwillingness to treat her like an adult

Meg is, in some ways, like a confessor here

She really plays that role all episode long, and I guess it’s the whole point of the episode, for her to pull him at last around the corner and onto the redemption path. The same effect might have been achieved by having Guy with an actual confessor but without the ability for him to project it outward onto another person which is such a very Guy thing to need for it to really work. It’s already a substantial thing to say the words to someone else (because I honestly think he’s said them to himself plenty) but for it to be someone who Guy can so easily project onto is what really makes it stick.

Then part 2...
[info]jedi_of_urth wrote:
Jun. 5th, 2009 02:22 am (UTC)
part 2
You let them see you weak, you let them know your secrets, and they will use them and hold them over you and make you feel like the lowest creature imaginable, but they certainly won't help you

Which is a trait I’m certain he and Isabella share. Makes me glad we never got a Vasey an Thornton team up of emotional manipulation because they’re both clearly masters of it. Which…makes me want to compare Isabella’s turn as soon as Thornton shows up to Guy’s loss of self when Vasey returns in Walkabout and then I just get sad for those two.

I think that Guy was ready to go out silent and defiant, holding onto some of his self-respect. He wasn't intending to give Isabella the satisfaction of seeing him falter. It took a lot for him to beg. But he did it. For Meg.

I completely agree, particularly given his resigned attitude all episode long, I don’t think he would have given her the satisfaction of begging for his own life, and he still didn’t. I figure it was mostly that he knew it was hopeless that Isabella would spare him, but he might have a chance to get Meg off the hook.

Also, way to stop the execution and then fail to protect the innocent girl they were planning to execute, Robin.

Bwah, so true. But Robin needed to rescue the shiny things too so after his initial contribution I think he quickly forgot about Meg. Stupid Robin.

because they wouldn't know how to deal with the fallout of Meg sticking around and Guy having to deal with her when they're not about to die, she gets stabbed.

That’s exactly why the story thought Meg had to die, wouldn’t want to deal with any actual aftershock. The fact that they’re (hopefully) going in a new direction on Guy’s story (although I maintain he’s been heading this way all season, which was just a setback from last season to start with) is already something huge for this show, actually dealing with the personal fallout between two characters would be asking too much I guess (Much also suffers from that this week).

I see the Marian parallel, and I love it, but I think he's mourning for both of them in equal measure.

I think in that moment they’re in equal measure yes, but it stands out on the Marian front because that’s been the longer story. Guy being the only one whose story this season has consistently carried Marian echoes. But it is Meg who died there, and his hurt over that fact shouldn’t be ignored.

writing feminist critique of Robin Hood is like shooting DEAD fish in a barrel.

A very apt comparison, also, they both stink (the show on feminism that is, not you writing about it).

He managed to scare me more than the Sheriff, Prince John, and every other villain on this show put together.

I think it has to do with him being a very *real* sort of threat, because men like him are much more likely to exist and commit similar horrible acts today than a man like Vasey could get away with. Also, Vasey and PJ were so much camp evil and funny that the threat sometimes got sidelined. With Thornton though, in part because he was only around for such a short time and partly because he just oozed nasty, he was all threat no camp and there’s just nothing funny about him.

Because she knows someone is there to help her, that she's not alone. Whatever she may think about Robin, she trusts that he will not let Thornton hurt her.

This also deserves a couple of comments because it makes me so sad for Isabella (who it seems when things get serious I suddenly stop calling Izzy) because she’s probably been facing all of this alone under Thornton’s thumb for 17 years with no one she could trust to protect her. And then Robin steps in, supposed champion of the powerless, which she is around Thornton, and she can believe that he’ll stand up for her.

But if Isabella hasn’t had friends or allies in her life, only people who she had power over with sex it goes a ways to explaining her backpedal action when LJ tells her he thinks Robin is interested in Kate. If she can’t rely on having even that bit of sway over Robin, she doesn’t really believe he’ll be willing to protect her. Robin didn’t really help his case by making it a ‘do as I say or I’ll be your enemy’ situation.

Then part 3...
[info]jedi_of_urth wrote:
Jun. 5th, 2009 02:24 am (UTC)
part 3, yep still going
As a character, she needed to do it instead of having Robin or some other man kill him for her. And Robin calling her on it? I HATE HIM SO MUCH FOR IT.

Yeah, idiot Robin takes what could easily be seen as a woman getting rid of the demon that had terrorized her most of her life, who had managed to beaten this willful and strong willed woman past the breaking point until even fleeing into Guy’s very suspect care seemed like a good idea, and make it an act of pure evil. I really don’t know how he does it, especially when one assumes he was running in there to kill Thornton himself.

But, like Guy, Robin's help has conditions and stipulations. He'll help her and work with her, but only if she helps him in his fight against Prince John. In that moment, what was Isabella supposed to do? Reject one of the only people who might be able to help her get rid of her sadistic husband who was at that very moment crashing through the trees calling for her in that angry, creepy way of his? No. So, of course, she agrees.

I hadn’t thought of the Guy parallel but it’s very true. Cast in all the more asshatery because we know Guy can move outside of that. There’s a reason the “Stay” scene breaks my heart every single time, and it’s not just because of what happens in the next episodes. It’s because big old emotionally demanding Guy is asking something so simple and small, it’s still a bit pressuring, but it was a request, a question, a hope, not quite demanding the way he usually acts. Not that that really means much to the scene at hand.

But Robin would be asking her to play double agent and put herself at risk while putting herself in his control which is just not the combination to go for when dealing with Isabella. Not that I think she definitely wouldn’t be up for the challenge if Robin had played it as a game, and offered to help her where he could and protect her if the ground fell out from this plan, the threat particularly with Thornton practically breathing down their necks just was a very poor way to do it.

Here's my problem in a nutshell. Robin tries (in really really failtastic ways) to give an abused woman the benefit of the doubt and see the good in her, Kate thinks she's bad news and says so, and by the end, said abused woman has killed her rapist husband and Robin has declared himself her enemy. Kate, who has been completely unsympathetic to Isabella throughout, gets to see Robin renounce the "other woman" cruelly and say "I told you so."

Thing is, I can kind of get why Kate would be prepared to hate Isabella, Kate’s from Locksley and has lived under Gisborne’s thumb for years, bad blood feeling and all that make her initial standpoint understandable. But then Isabella helps them in 3x06 and everybody but Kate sort of tentatively likes her. Then Isabella turns on Robin in 3x07 (for reasons that would be obvious to anyone with an ounce of understanding) and Kate gets to be smug about it and she gets to continue being smug about it here when we’re confronted with so much of why Isabella is the way she is. They’ve also given us plenty of reason to find Isabella sympathetic, while all they’ve done is told us that Kate is all that and a bag of chips but given us no reason to actually believe it.

I wonder if Guy hearing the arguments from someone else will be a catalyst for him realizing that he should apologize to his sister.

And the lack of the shows two main females standing up for each other annoys me too (not that we ever actually got scenes between Marian and Djac mind you, but it was clear they respected each other, although the situations obviously aren’t the same). But all of our “good” characters keep talking about how bad Isabella is as opposed to giving any thought to what she’s got to deal with. How am I supposed to view the supposed good guy as anything other than sanctimonious asshats when they don’t stand up for someone like Isabella?

and part 4...
[info]jedi_of_urth wrote:
Jun. 5th, 2009 02:26 am (UTC)
Part 4, finally done
Haven't we seen that all any Gisborne needs is a little bit of trust and some kindness and they'll follow you anywhere? How can an episode all about GUY'S redemption be so calloused to Isabella?

Also completely true. Which is part of what makes it so hard to condemn Isabella right now, because she’s even more a victim than Guy and it’s clear that humanity isn’t out of reach for him, why should one think it is for Isabella? I’m really not sure what we’re supposed to take away from this, but it really does feel a little disjointed on the forgivability of villains.

Much obviously wants to be the one who stays, but she sends him away

Also where does she get the authority to act like that? Both she and Tuck seem to have entitlement issues with how much sway they should have in the gang.

a man who's heartbroken because the two people he cares for most in the world are choosing each other over him. (and not just romantically

Sniff, why’d you have to go and word it like that, I have personal issues with that kind of thing and had managed to avoid projecting them onto Much (at least consciously, I probably had subconsciously). And Robin knows how much Much depends on him even if Kate doesn’t.

My reasoning? Robin asks her why she's so angry, her answer is to reach out and KISS HIM. For all intents and purposes, she's saying "I'm angry because I want to kiss you, and you're paying attention to Isabella instead of me."

In an odd sort of way I respected her for that move. She has a crush on Robin so instead of continuing to hide it and get huffy that he’s not paying attention to that fact, she takes to opportunity and lets him know what she feeling. Especially since I spent all of Doctor Who season 3 getting upset at Martha getting upset with Martha because she would complain about the Doctor not returning her crush even though she never really clued him into it. I may not ship them, but somebody had to break the stalemate that the various crushes had fallen into.

I don't quite understand what we're supposed to take from Much forgetting his part in the heist while watching Robin and Kate fight off the guards….if "they look really neat fighting together," is reason for epic romance, then Tuck/Allan should be canon yesterday.

I read it as sort of the classic moment where someone has to choose between honor and saving their romantic rival, except in Much’s case since he would never actually do anything to hurt Robin the closest we get is him getting distracted from his job because he’s again not in the little Robin-and-Kate club. And to the last, hee there are all kinds of pairing we could make for fighting skills.

I think it's an equal part "I don't need to be around for this, I can make my own way."

I read it as that and then an “I don’t have to take this anymore” thing. Because I’m not sure he knows that Robin hesitated for Much’s sake and even then he doesn’t have reason to think that’ll last (and it doesn’t) so I can’t help thinking Much is thinking that he doesn’t deserve the treatment he’s getting from Robin and Kate, so he’s going to go somewhere where he doesn’t have to deal with it.

So, what has changed by the end of the episode? Much may have come back and saved his friends, but there's been no closure there

Which if I had my way would mean it’s going to come up again soon. Because nothing was resolved, all those feelings that Much had are still there, the Robin/Kate mess just got bigger in the end. Someone needs to call another Kall…Kale…that thing Djac got them to do with the truth telling, again or Much is going to be running away again soon.

Who does that leave out? Allan

Especially after Allan got to do so much in season 2, this season he’s almost as invisible as Little John (it about balances out, Allan stands out a bit more in general but John occasionally gets side plots). I miss season 2 Allan.

And done
[info]corrielle wrote:
Jun. 8th, 2009 10:40 pm (UTC)
Re: Part 4, finally done
Commenting to all 4 in one two comment box(es)... (Sorry I haven't written back sooner... Saturday happened, and I forgot that I had some highly interesting comments to respond to.)

he would need the explanation before he could apologize but she needs the apology before she’s going to be comfortable enough around him to talk about what happened to her.

YES. That is a most concise and tragic explanation of a great many of their issues. Their individual problems seem to grate against each other wrong, and they are both completely incapable of giving the other is needed because of some insurmountable emotional/psychological baggage that they're not talking about. It's enough to make me want to scream and shake them sometimes. ;-)

Makes me glad we never got a Vasey an Thornton team up of emotional manipulation because they’re both clearly masters of it. Which…makes me want to compare Isabella’s turn as soon as Thornton shows up to Guy’s loss of self when Vasey returns in Walkabout

Whoa. I had not thought of either of those things, and I literally felt a shiver go down my spine at the thought of Vasey and Thornton teaming up. They would either take over the world or kill each other because they were so similar... I can't decide which. And kudos to you for pointing out the Walkabout parallel... that makes SO much sense. Both of them want to be good. They really do. And every time they take tentative steps toward it... WHAM. They get slapped down by someone who has a stranglehold on their psyches. (I swear... I don't think the writers are going this way, but if Guy relapses before the end of this season because of Vasey's return, I am going to be EXTREMELY unhappy.)

I think it has to do with him being a very *real* sort of threat, because men like him are much more likely to exist and commit similar horrible acts today than a man like Vasey could get away with.

That is exactly it. This show doesn't do "real," either, so it was that much more of a shock to have this terrible, very realistic villain descending in the middle of our campy, historically inaccurate playground.

If she can’t rely on having even that bit of sway over Robin, she doesn’t really believe he’ll be willing to protect her.

Again, I think you've hit on something really true here, and my heart breaks for Isabella all over again. I had been reading Isabella's continued attraction to Robin more as a misguided hope that she might one day have that "perfect" happy life she missed out on. I hadn't thought about it in the immediate sense of providing security.

Not that I think she definitely wouldn’t be up for the challenge if Robin had played it as a game, and offered to help her where he could and protect her if the ground fell out from this plan

YES! That is EXACTLY what Robin should have done! We've seen the writers give Robin and Isabella snappy, interesting dialogue before. Where's the Isabella who was making cracks about holding hands? Where's the smug, playful Robin who flirted with her while making her hand over her necklace? I know that a lot has passed between them since then, but I'm talking about the WRITING here. Also, we've seen Robin handle equally unstable people who until very recently were trying to kill him *coughCARTERcough* with sympathy and gentleness. It's beyond me why he doesn't do so here. It's like the writers decided, "Isabella IS going to be evil... so Robin HAS TO be mean to her," no matter what the characters already established would do. *sigh* It's a failing this show has always had, and it's getting worse for some characters every week. (Sorry. Bit of a tangent there...)











[info]bryar127 wrote:
Jun. 8th, 2009 11:17 pm (UTC)
Re: Part 4, finally done
"I swear... I don't think the writers are going this way, but if Guy relapses before the end of this season because of Vasey's return, I am going to be EXTREMELY unhappy."

If this happens, I will set my TV on fire.
[info]jedi_of_urth wrote:
Jun. 9th, 2009 02:14 am (UTC)
Re: Part 4, finally done
Hey, I got really really out of hand on this reply, obviously. It sparked off like a million thoughts that when I did my own reaction post I hadn't thought up, so basically I spewed over your journal with all of them (and got a lesson in comment length allowance while I was at it).

I had been reading Isabella's continued attraction to Robin more as a misguided hope that she might one day have that "perfect" happy life she missed out on. I hadn't thought about it in the immediate sense of providing security.

Until this episode I hadn't either but her actions here kind of tipped it into that area. I think she is attracted to him, and would still like that life but there's also the immediate concerns of being on precarious ground with all the men in her life and trying to find some secure ground. And Robin, when compared with Guy and PJ seems like fairly stable ground, only for LJ to shake that up too.

It's like the writers decided, "Isabella IS going to be evil... so Robin HAS TO be mean to her," no matter what the characters already established would do. *sigh* It's a failing this show has always had, and it's getting worse for some characters every week.

Yeah, it's a huge failing of this show's usual black and white mentality, and that Robin must *always* be right even if it sure looks like he's just being an asshat. Since Isabella isn't totally on Robin's good side that makes her evil. Also, Robin has some Anakin Skywalker stuff going on with his "either you're with me or you're my enemy," thing is the writers seem to have forgotten that by that point Anakin was you know, evil; so Robin giving that speech is supposed to be good how?

They have only allotted so much room for morally grey in any given episode which usually goes to Guy, sometimes Allan and Marian before Guy started taking up even more of that room with his actual redemption are (and you Marian died and Allan stopped getting screen time).
[info]corrielle wrote:
Jun. 8th, 2009 10:41 pm (UTC)
Second part of my comment to your comments... this is getting out of hand. ;-)
not that we ever actually got scenes between Marian and Djac mind you, but it was clear they respected each other

I think one of my favorite scenes in all of season 1 is when Marian has had her near-death thing, and Djaq tells her how brave she was. (This is also right before the "You love her, she loves you, we all love each other. Now get out of my way" line, which made me even more of a Djaq fangirl than before.)

How am I supposed to view the supposed good guy as anything other than sanctimonious asshats when they don’t stand up for someone like Isabella?

How indeed? Inquiring minds want to know...

In an odd sort of way I respected her for that move. She has a crush on Robin so instead of continuing to hide it and get huffy that he’s not paying attention to that fact, she takes to opportunity and lets him know what she feeling.

When you put it that way, it's a lot more sympathetic. I don't think I was really angry at her for the kiss as much as I was for all of the other stuff that went around it. In a differently written episode, I might have been HAPPY for her. As for Martha... poor Martha. I think the Doctor Who writers weren't quite sure what to do with her, which was sad. She could have been awesome. They didn't use the fact that she was practically a MEDICAL doctor nearly enough, in my opinion. I had to respect her for leaving him in the end, though, instead of sticking around and knowing that he'd never feel that way again. I'm a fan who came to Doctor Who through the new series, so the idea of someone WILLINGLY leaving The Doctor blew my mind a little.

Someone needs to call another Kall…Kale…that thing Djac got them to do with the truth telling, again or Much is going to be running away again soon.

YES TO THIS. Can we call one and invite Guy and Isabella, too?
[info]jedi_of_urth wrote:
Jun. 9th, 2009 02:21 am (UTC)
Re: Second part of my comment to your comments... this is getting out of hand. ;-)
Fact is my comments got out of hand a lot before you found that it also came up for you.

I don't think I was really angry at her for the kiss as much as I was for all of the other stuff that went around it. In a differently written episode, I might have been HAPPY for her

I can sure agree with that, just the kiss was fine with me but then she started breaking poor Much's heart and wanting to leave Isabella to die and the good angle on that first kiss gets kind of lost.

Oh I have plenty of problems with the way Martha's character was handled, not that I've ever made a secret of that. She was supposed to be this well together character and then she started acting like a fifteen you old with a crush on a hot boy, which even that could actually have worked if they'd handled it better, but it just wasn't handled all that well. But her story arc works better once you can consider the whole thing, her coming back to herself by the end of the season, having figured out a little more of who she is and all that.

YES TO THIS. Can we call one and invite Guy and Isabella, too?

You figure out how to write it and I'll be all over it. Everybody spill their secrets now, and then people can maybe make up.
[info]endcredits wrote:
Jun. 6th, 2009 05:03 pm (UTC)
Hooray for this review! As usual, I found myself nodding along and saying, "Damn, why didn't I think of that?"

If Guy had been the only one to change, the story would have felt contrived and hollow.

Definitely, yes. It didn't feel at all like Meg was plopped in at the very end of the season to give Guy a quick shove into his redemption arc, which — let's face it — she probably was. The fact that the dungeon scenes were spread out over the course of the episode also let me imagine further conversation and connection. Meg has obviously had little good experience of the male sex — they're either trying to sell her off, or trying to buy her. Guy hasn't had a chance to connect with anyone on a human level since he 'did the deed'. I think it also helped that, as you mention, she was a complete stranger; she had no allegiance or bias that would have let him retreat into the reactionary defensiveness he's so fond of.

That it also serves to shut her up is not lost on me.

Oh, ha! Yes, of course. Clever Guy!

And now this girl, to whom he's just told her his darkest secret (...) is standing at the door to his cell with keys in hand.

This scene is possibly my favourite bit in the episode. His little face when he realises she's returned to free him! It also emphasises the fact that he was being decent with no expectation of anything in return. He knew Meg had an in with his sister, and he could easily have attempted to use this as leverage.

if their further existence would complicate things too much, they get offed.

I'm really, really torn. On the one hand, I just love the mirroring of Marian's death, and, of course, the scene was so beautifully shot. I feel a bit bad that I'm internally debating whether it's worth a girl's death just to get to see Guy sobbing (*clutches him*). On the other hand, I'd have loved for her to live, just to combat the show's dubious treatment of female characters. Look girls, you don't have to DIE or go EVIL just because you show a scrap of affection for a man.

Sydney Carton

Sorry, just have to pause to glee over ToTC. God, I love Carton.

The barrel is FULL TO THE BRIM WITH DEAD FISH. No water.

Hee! Best simile ever.

And I really love your thoughts on Isabella.

The way Robin handles her is exactly the wrong way.

I just cringed when he turned up in her bedchamber, threatening and blackmailing her. I can't help but think the writers are actually intending to show Robin in a bad light. Can they really expect us to stand behind this crass little egotist?

Prince John is Richard's regent.

A thousand times YES! Robin's blind devotion to Richard bugs me terribly, especially as Richard has known about John's machinations for many months and has done nothing about it. He knowingly leaves John in charge, ergo John's political appointments are sanctioned by Richard. Robin had the chance here to really help change things for the people of Nottingham on a large scale (larger than a few bags of grain and a handful of coins), but he lets his own petty issues stand in the way.

Kate doesn't want Robin working with Isabella because she's jealous.

This is exactly how I read the situation too, which is really problematic. It renders Kate's later writing off of Isabella (Oh, just leave her, etc.) really quite disturbing, almost as if she's hoping the competition will be killed to leave the way clear for herself. Never an attractive trait, murderous jealousy.

if "they look really neat fighting together," is reason for epic romance, then Tuck/Allan should be canon yesterday.

Couldn't let this one past without a HEE! at the very least.

All I ask for is ONE good Allan episode this time around.

From your keyboard to the writers' ears! I've been complaining about this all season. How is it possible to give a character such interesting development last season, and then just leave him on the scrap heap this year? IT WILL NOT DO! (Also: Guy/Allan scenes now plzthx.)

I'm really quite nervous about today's episode. Ulp. *crossing fingers and toes*
[info]corrielle wrote:
Jun. 8th, 2009 11:03 pm (UTC)
It didn't feel at all like Meg was plopped in at the very end of the season to give Guy a quick shove into his redemption arc, which — let's face it — she probably was.

And THAT is what boggles my mind! She was a one-shot character with nothing more than a function to serve! How did she manage not to be horrendously obnoxious at worst and mildly preachy at best? How did THIS SHOW of all shows pull that off? I was almost afraid to watch this episode again after the first time. I worried that my glowing feelings about Meg had more to do with Guy's reactions to her than HER as a character.

(Actually, now that I think about it, one-shot characters have a pretty good track record on this show. Perhaps I shouldn't be so surprised. I also maintain that anyone having lots of scenes with Richard is going to have awesome rub off on them.)

The fact that the dungeon scenes were spread out over the course of the episode also let me imagine further conversation and connection.

I may have spent the final I proctored today making notes for a fic based on just that assumption... What DID Guy and Meg say to each other after Isabella caught them trying to escape and locked them up again? SO MANY possibilities! *glee*

He knew Meg had an in with his sister, and he could easily have attempted to use this as leverage.

Huh... I had not thought of that. Wow. Guy seeing an opportunity to use people for his own gain and NOT TAKING IT. That's big.

On the other hand, I'd have loved for her to live, just to combat the show's dubious treatment of female characters. Look girls, you don't have to DIE or go EVIL just because you show a scrap of affection for a man.

YES YES YES. (Oh, but we're forgetting Kate... she's kissed Robin TWICE and has not yet succumbed to black leather or death. She's still a stellar example of a female charac... Oh. Wait. Never mind.)

God, I love Carton.

Me too! I had a crush on him in the book, I cried my eyes out in English class on the day that we watched a movie adaptation of the last scene, and I chose that book as the subject of one of the longer papers I wrote in college partially because I wanted to spend more time with him.

Can they really expect us to stand behind this crass little egotist?

Yes. Yes they can. And they DO. I usually don't go around insulting the creators of canon I love, but I seriously don't think that ANYONE with much sense about how HUMAN BEINGS react to things is involved with the writing and editing decisions this show makes. There are so many things that FAIL on an epic and massive scale... and they don't seem to notice. Either that, or they don't care. I worry that it might be the second one.

t renders Kate's later writing off of Isabella (Oh, just leave her, etc.) really quite disturbing, almost as if she's hoping the competition will be killed to leave the way clear for herself.

Wow. I hadn't thought that through to its logical conclusion... that IS disturbing, and yet another example of how the writers don't see how they're making Kate come off to the audience. I almost feel bad for her, and I REALLY pity her actress. It's not her fault she's being written so unsympathetically.

I'm really hoping for some Guy and Allan interaction next episode, though I'm not holding my breath. It would be a perfect opportunity for Allan to do something useful and interesting by mediating between Guy and the rest of the group... but this show is fantastic at missing opportunities to do really obvious cool things. *sigh*




[info]3circledsun wrote:
Jun. 7th, 2009 04:28 pm (UTC)
You seem interesting. Mind if we become friends?
[info]bryar127 wrote:
Jun. 8th, 2009 05:03 pm (UTC)
Love these. Thanks for writing.

I don't know what to think about Kate in this episode! Do they seriously want the audience to agree with a character who encouraged Robin to leave another woman to be raped and stangled in her own bed? Cause I think that's what we were supposed to be feeling?? Instead I'm hoping that Isabella kills all the "heroes" and gets to rule the world.
[info]corrielle wrote:
Jun. 8th, 2009 11:09 pm (UTC)
Thank you for the compliment! Thank you for commenting!

I really do think that the writers are completely unaware of the terrible things they're wanting us as the audience to accept in this episode. They think that because Robin is the hero, he is always right, and anyone who disagrees with him or doesn't do what he says is automatically the enemy because he's ROBIN, and the show is all about him. So, they forget to do things like make Robin and other people who agree with him act like... you know... PEOPLE with, oh, I don't know... SOULS? *sigh*

Instead I'm hoping that Isabella kills all the "heroes" and gets to rule the world.

I'm... kind of down with that right now, but only if Guy and Allan live and lead the fledgling resistance.

[info]ravenya03 wrote:
Jun. 10th, 2009 08:16 am (UTC)
Long Angry Rant!
I’ve been waiting for ages to read your thoughts on this episode – even as I watched it, I was thinking: I bet Corrielle’s going crazy with glee/rage over this! In many ways, this was the best episode, and yet in many ways it was the most troublesome. It was the Big Guy Episode.

I have never been a big Guy fan. At the same time I acknowledged RA’s talent and commitment to the role, and the fascination of the character himself, I just wasn’t really into him and quite happy to treat him as a villain. So when I say that the whole Meg/Guy deal moved me to tears, you’ll know it’s a pretty big deal. So far, Guy/Meg and Toby Stephen’s performance has been the only thing worth watching this season, and I’ll admit – as much as I hated Guy-the-character for what he did throughout most of S1 and 2, I was incredibly touched that he’s finally glimpsing redemption.

It’s a pity two innocent girls had to die in order to achieve this for him. But hey, that’s what females are for, right? To perish in order to further a man’s personal development?

No? They’re not? Really?

I guess it’s to go insane when a man rejects them.

Or stand around doing bugger all until he’s finally ready to make out with you.

Kate has bitched, moaned, nagged, whined, sulked and yes, even mildly whored, her way through this season, and is rewarded when Robin condescends to let her stick her tongue down his throat.

Yay?

I truly, honestly, do not understand this character or what the writers are trying to achieve with her, which is a first for this show. Up until Kate, I could grasp the intentions and motivations of the writers were doing – even including the twisted logic behind Marian’s death. But Kate? I’m utterly clueless. Her existence is a mystery. If a character was a fart, then that fart would be called Kate. (I am seven years old.)

The Thorton deal. Dear god. Some of what he was saying had no business being on a show that is apparently still trying to pull in a child audience (though, are any kids still watching this? Are any PARENTS still letting their kids watch this? Apart from the kid who complained about all the snogging, of course. I bet he just LOVED this episode).

I actually read a rather terrifying theory on another blog that speculated that Thornton saw Izzy as a child/young girl and *specifically* went after her, approaching her brother and offering a large sum of money in order to possess her. That makes so much sense to me. He just seemed so utterly…*fixated* on this woman. It was terrifying.

So of course, you can imagine how utterly disgusted I was with Robin/the writers/the director – whoever’s idea it was to have Robin GRAB ISABELLA’S FACE and THROW HER BACK ONTO THE BED in the EXACT SAME WAY that her ABUSIVE HUSBAND HAS JUST DONE.

And then Robin actually tells her that she didn’t need to kill him?

After his made-of-fail plan involved him chucking Thornton in a rickety old cart, driven by an old man, on its way to an insane asylum?

When it was obvious that Izzy was clearly terrified and acted in self-defense? While his revolting new girlfriend wasted time by to convince him to let Thornton get rid of her competition?

And follows this by telling Izzy that he only kills when necessary after HE’S JUST KILLED THE EXECUTIONER FOR NO REASON AT ALL????!!!!

Oh you pretentious git, I can’t wait to watch you die.
[info]corrielle wrote:
Jun. 11th, 2009 08:27 pm (UTC)
Re: Long Angry Rant!
I DO so appreciate your long angry rants... (Seriously... no sarcasm there.)

It’s a pity two innocent girls had to die in order to achieve this for him. But hey, that’s what females are for, right? To perish in order to further a man’s personal development?

No? They’re not? Really?


I laughed till I cried when I read this. This is one of those "Funny because it's true" things. *sigh* What's so sad is that I really believe that the writers THINK that they're writing strong, feisty female characters and aren't even aware of what they're doing.

I actually read a rather terrifying theory on another blog that speculated that Thornton saw Izzy as a child/young girl and *specifically* went after her, approaching her brother and offering a large sum of money in order to possess her.

I read that too! It does make an awful lot of sense. I almost wonder if Lara and Thornton's actor got together and discussed their backstory.

And follows this by telling Izzy that he only kills when necessary after HE’S JUST KILLED THE EXECUTIONER FOR NO REASON AT ALL????!!!!

I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW. Especially because executioners were usually well-respected PROFESSIONALS who were chosen for their skill and their lack of bias and connection to the person they were executing. (Not that I expect this show to recognize this, but ARGH.)

I wish I could just wish Robin dead and be done with it, but I worry about how much it's going to hurt people I care about... like Much.

[info]ravenya03 wrote:
Jun. 10th, 2009 08:18 am (UTC)
Long Angry Rant 2!
As for Much/Sam Troughton…well, first of all, poor Sam may as well have a “please kill me” sign on his forehead. He obviously doesn’t want to be here, and he hates what’s happening to his character (he’s hinted as much in interviews).
And as for Much leaving – I was so proud of him. It was the smartest thing he’s ever done; and whether he’s heading off to find Eve, or heading for the coast and the next ship to Acre where the only two people who ever treated him with respect are waiting with pigeons, I don’t care. The important thing is that he finally had enough, squared his shoulders, and went off to seek his fortune elsewhere.

To be honest, the Allan stuff isn’t upsetting me, because he’s obviously a robot. No way would the real Allan mock the idea of a woman sheriff, not after two years in the forest with a woman doctor. Will obviously got some of the wiring wrong when he made this Allan-bot. I hope the real thing is having a good time in the Holy Land.
[info]corrielle wrote:
Jun. 11th, 2009 08:37 pm (UTC)
Re: Long Angry Rant 2!
he hates what’s happening to his character (he’s hinted as much in interviews).

Any chance you could point me to those?

Re: The Allan-bot...

I love this theory of yours SO MUCH and tell it to anyone who will listen. I don't know if you watched much Buffy, but I'm having visions of the Buffy-bot that has little screens of information popping up about each person she interacts with. I imagine the Allan bot's looking something like this:

Robin:
Our leader!
Not so good with the plans. Call him on this.
Makes speeches. Boring ones.

Much:
Fun to tease.
Bad with girls. Give advice when necessary. (If interest is in same girl, over-ride this function.)
Cooks and cleans. Sometimes catches squirrels.

Little John:
Doesn't talk.
Has a big stick.

General functions:
Installed: Accent and disguise package
Installed: Castle map
Installed: Two-sword fighting function
Installed: Witty quip generator
*detected bug in "plan execution" module. Unit may malfunction by talking about plan in front of mark. See manufacturer for bug fixes.

[info]ravenya03 wrote:
Jun. 11th, 2009 10:57 pm (UTC)
Re: Long Angry Rant 2!
Ahaha! I'll never be able to watch that Buffy episode without thinking of the Allan-bot. Yet the scary thing is, I really have accepted it as canon. This person we're seeing now, is NOT Allan! Simple as that.

he hates what’s happening to his character (he’s hinted as much in interviews).

Any chance you could point me to those?


Okay, the link that is (hopefully) below is really one of the most fascinating interviews I've ever watched.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/a150195/robin-hood-week-continues-meet- much.html

First of all, it could be simply because Sam Troughton is tired or hot, but his general demeanour and body language just screams "I don't want to be here."

On the subject of Kate and Much's feelings for her...well, it's very clear that he doesn't like the storyline, and doesn't feel as though it fits Much's character. He even goes so far to say that Much only likes "the idea of Kate", and that Much is "asexual." It's quite amazing that he would go that far to defend his character and attempt to salvage some dignity for what poor Much has had to put up with this season.

He also mentions that Allan "flirts with Kate for the sake of it," which is also quite interesting - it's almost like he's apologising on behalf of Joe Armstrong for what ALLAN goes through this season.

My theory that is grounded on nothing but my own gut-instinct is this:

I don't know how far in advance the actors see their scripts, but I think Sam and Joe knew (or at least made an educated guess) that Kate would end up with Robin.

And consequently, this shows in their performances: Much never struck me as "in love" with Kate, just slightly entranced, and (as you've probably seen on rohwyn's blog) I always felt more of a sibling vibe between Allan/Kate. There was nothinig like the flirty/angsty bond like there was between Allan/Djaq. Or Allan/Will for that matter (damn STRAIGHT that's a viable example).

Both actors have been given very little to do this season, and most of what they *did* do revolved around Kate...and yet their hearts just didn't seem to be in their characters "attraction" to Kate...because the actors knew that she'd end up with Robin anyway.
[info]an_lagat_glas wrote:
Jun. 17th, 2009 11:47 pm (UTC)
This review is EXCELLENT. I agree with everything you said, from Meg to Isabella to Robin's WTFness during this whole thing. Even though Isabella is supposed to be the villain now, after seeing Thornton I can't blame her for her crazy. The writers show us exactly why she is the way she is, and I deeply suspect that they have no clue they've done it. It's like they have all these beautiful, shiny pieces of glass but instead of being able to make a mosaic they just shove them in with rocks and bits of dirt and pretend they're Picasso or something. Gah.

One question though: Do they state in the show that Prince John is Richard's regent? Because he definitely wasn't in real life. But yeah, Robin's political choices make no sense at all.
[info]corrielle wrote:
Jun. 18th, 2009 01:11 am (UTC)
The mosaic analogy WORKS for me. That is exactly what they're doing... *sigh*

I'm basing my assumption that John is Richard's regent on Robin telling the gang, a later Guy, why they shouldn't assassinate John during the coronation. He says something like, "With Richard gone, he's our leader, and if he dies we risk invasion, and even civil war." That seems to imply that John is the one with the power while Richard is gone.
[info]_phantom_ wrote:
Aug. 3rd, 2009 08:44 am (UTC)
I gave up on Robin AGES ago, cause it's stupidity was too much for me to handle. But my best friend sat me down over the weekend and forced me to watch it, so I've just seen this ep, and the two prior to it.

I just want to let you know, how sitting through ANY ep of RH is worth it for your "full length, in depth analysis essay every week" - you completely make me crack up. I love it!

I'm going to sit through the rest of the season, simply so my mate can rant at me about it (apparently since I got her into this show in the first place, it's my duty) but believe me when I tell you, that you make it completely worth it.

Teehee. *is still completely amused*
[info]corrielle wrote:
Aug. 4th, 2009 06:50 pm (UTC)
I'm so glad that you enjoy. I sure had fun writing them... a good part of my enjoyment of the show came from the discussions I've gotten to have with the rest of the fandom. I don't think I could have gotten through the last few episodes had I been watching in a completely solitary way.
( 23 comments — Leave a comment )