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Robin Hood 3x07 Review: Too Hot to Handle

  • May. 13th, 2009 at 7:00 PM
Allan Can't Go Back

This weeks episode suffers from the fact that it follows on the heels of last week's really fantastic episode, making its faults more glaring.  Also, it not only suffers from "Not How I Think It Should Have Been Done" syndrome, but from "Just Plain Done Poorly" in some rather significant ways.   Don't get me wrong.  There were some fantastic moments this week, and Guy, Isabella, and Prince John are still awesome.  Even Robin managed to redeem himself in my eyes a tiny bit, but I felt like some of the character arcs were shaky and pasted together awkwardly.  


Isabella/Robin

I am torn about what happened in this episode.  On the one hand, one of my major worries about Isabella/Robin was that it had the potential to be a rehash of the "Robin likes someone who is connected to Guy who lives in the castle and gives him information" storyline.  There were the obvious differences - Isabella being Guy's sister, her very interesting motivations, her actual need for Guy's protection from her husband, and the fact that she could actually play John and Guy in a way I don't think Marian could have pulled off - but even those were not enough to keep the whole situation from seeming awfully familiar.  Therefore, I suppose I should be happy that things, for now, do not seem to be going smoothly between the two of them.  Isabella switching sides was certainly unexpected, and I believe I could be convinced to like this new development quite a lot.  However, on the other hand, the Robin/Isabella dynamic in this episode is all over the place.  One moment, he's bringing her anachronistic strawberries in the middle of a drought and they're snuggling right next to Prince John's window like a couple of lovesick idiots, the next he's in The Meadow (capital letters courtesy of the placards at the bottom of the screen) listening to her plan while at the same time accusing her of trying to lure him into a trap.  Then, he's fully ready to believe that she's betrayed him when Guy shackles them together, even though it's completely obvious that Guy is also feeling betrayed by her.  Without any of that getting resolved (unless you call their conversation about Marian and their weird little interaction at the fork in the road resolution), they're in Clun getting their shackles cut off and Robin's telling her, "Don't worry that you have nowhere to go. You have me."   Then, they're clinging to each other in the water, and when they finally get out, Robin's changed his tune to, "Look, I like you and all, but The People are more important to me."  I'm trying to see a pattern here.  I really am.  I'm trying to put together what led from one event to another so that I can make some semblance of a coherent relationship arc out of it.  And I really can't. 

So, here are my conclusions: 

First: Robin/Isabella was sweet, but very uneven.  The development of their relationship and Guy finding out about it were crammed into too few episodes.  They needed two or three more weeks to explore Isabella's character, to let her motivations and her attraction to Robin unfold more slowly.  As it was, it ended up being quite jarring.  It ended up making Robin seem like he was more of a horrible person than usual, kissing her and leading her on without any intention of having a life with her.  (Also, doesn't he yell at her in the forest about how she's made him think they had a future?  And then, when she wants one, not only does he tell her he won't run away with her, but he essentially tells her he can't be with her at all any more if he wants to serve the people.  Who was leading who on now, Robin?  Were the writers even paying attention to what he said earlier? I highly doubt it, and that makes me sad.)  

Second: Isabella is more like her brother than she would like to admit. Like Guy, she has obviously had so little true affection in her life, that once she is given it, she reacts very badly to the prospect of losing it.  As terribly written and contrived as her "I have a dream of us in the country raising our own food and an equal number of boys and girls" speech was, I'll buy that in that moment, facing death, she believed it.  Watching her do this scene reminded me of Guy trying to get Marian to marry him even when they both knew all was lost in "Walkabout" (only not as awesome, because nothing in the history of Robin Hood is as awesome as that episode).  I'll even buy that admitting her dream to Robin was something of a revelation to her.  She has realized that even having lost her brother's protection and the Prince's favor, she still has a chance for happiness, and she's giddy at the possibility of a new start until Robin takes it away from her.  This, as it turns out, was a bad decision on his part, because having her dream of happiness snatched away, Isabella reacts like one would expect a Gisborne to react. She follows power and switches her allegiance to Prince John.  I like to think that if Robin had been kinder to her, if he had told her "It's going to be difficult, but we'll see what happens" instead of "No, not ever, sorry..." then she would have fought at his side against Prince John.  (I must grudgingly admit that being down in the well with her and having her life put in danger for having helped him may have reminded Robin of how much she stood to lose.  He doesn't want another woman he cares for to die for his cause.  Still. He could have broken the news to her more gently.)  

I've pointed out before that both Guy and Isabella seem to place great importance on speech, on Words Said Aloud. This comes out again in Isabella's, "The only thing I ever wanted to hear from him was a plea for forgiveness.  Some admission of guilt that it was his fault I was so unhappy."  This was well-written and well-played, I thought, and quite sad.  An admission is the one thing she'll never get from him.  I'm extremely interested in the possibilities implied by Robin's "What about what he has to say?" question, but I'm sure that line of his was forgotten as soon as it was penned, because by the end of the episode Robin is more than ready to run Guy through once more.

On Robin's side of things, I was surprisingly impressed with the way that his longing for family and normalcy was handled in this episode. He's got a worn out, tired melancholy in the scene with Tuck where he wonders if he can really change things, and even Tuck's pep talk doesn't do much to cheer him up.  This was nice and understated, I thought.  Not too much "poor me," just a quiet exhaustion.  It's understandable that Robin might be feeling a bit low.  Vasey, Robin's enemy for so long, is finally "dead," but the change he thought he would see on the day Vasey died is no closer than it was when he was alive.  Instead, John has stepped into Vasey's shoes, and in many ways, John is worse than the Sheriff ever was.  That has to be disheartening for Robin.  So, in the face of a situation he no longer thinks he can change, he starts to wish for what the people he fights for every day have:  family, a normal life, a home.  Perhaps that's one of the reasons he is starting to fall for Isabella.  Yes, he wants to make himself forget the pain of losing Marian, but some of his reactions indicate to me that she represents, for a little while, at least, the possibility of that normal future he craves. 

Of course, by the end of the episode, he's changed his tune, and he's back to his old, "I'm Robin Hood, I fight for the people" business. If he'd shown some lingering doubt, some hint of sadness over what he's lost with Isabella, I would have given the show a medal.  But he doesn't.  He's the same old Robin with the same old emotional depth of slime mold.   Therefore, I don't feel too bad pausing for a moment to enumerate several things that infuriated me about Robin this episode:

The fact that he comes to Isabella right outside of Locksley, when I'm pretty sure that it's obvious that Prince John is there.  Is he trying to get her caught?

The way that he tells Much, "It's not the same, is it?" When Much reminds him, "You have me..." As nicely played as the rest of this emotional arc was, I could have slapped Robin in that moment.  He didn't even acknowledge that Much was trying to help him, in his own way.  It's not, "Oh, old friend... you know I love you, but I want family, too..." It's just, "It's not the same."  No return of the affection, just blind petulance.  Oh, Robin, did last season teach you nothing?

Why the insistence that the rest of the gang wait for him in the village while he's off with Isabella?  It's like Robin's afraid they'll be useful without him. Couldn't have that... the people might not love him enough. *hmph*

Robin saying "I'm letting you have your own way… now surely you can't get angry at me for letting you have your way, can you?"  YES SHE CAN, Robin, when you are so obviously being condescending.  Again, I struggle with how to read this.  What am I supposed to take away from this interaction?  Because I took that Isabella was right and Robin is a well-meaning by extraordinarily chauvinistic young man who knows less than nothing about women.  Also, an extra dose of FAIL for the show for not making it obvious which way they end up going when they've just argued about it for a good minute of screen time.  It looks like from the way they were standing that Isabella goes behind Robin, off to the right, which was originally "his way,"  but I can't be sure of that.

The EPIC FAIL of Robin's conversation with Isabella about Marian.  I am glad beyond words that Marian got a mention at all, and I even liked that Robin admits that he's trying to forget, with the implication that the pain of remembering is too much.  However, all of those good points are overshadowed for me by the fact that Robin puts on his petulant child act when Isabella points out that Marian had a strong hold over Guy, as well.  (Perceptive of her to have picked that up from what little she heard them say, by the way, unless she and Guy have discussed it off-screen, which I highly doubt.)  When he said that Marian never gave Guy reason or encouraged her, I believe that I paused the episode and screamed, "YOU ARE BLIND AND DUMB, SIR!" at the screen.  Marian DID give him reason.  She kissed him and agreed to marry him and flirted with him, and Robin knew it.  It has just occurred to me that he's rewriting history to make Marian more pure, more his, and in doing so, he's making her less complicated, more easily managed.  It's easier for him to remember a Marian who loved just him than a woman who may have had conflicted feelings for a man he hated.  (And he's erasing what little canon validity my 'ship had, which, while irrelevant, makes me irrationally angry).



Guy of Gisborne did not have a fun episode. 

When I think about Guy this week, I don't so much see new things happening as I do the return of a lot of old things with new faces. What should have been his moment of triumph, his accession to power is instead a repeat of Marian's betrayal and Vasey's manipulation.  And what's more, I think Guy knows it.

Once again, Guy is faced with a woman who is close to him betraying him for Robin.  Like Marian, Isabella spoke prettily and made him feel as if his protection was important to her, and as with Marian, Guy is faced with the fact that those words were not heartfelt, but self-serving.  That being said, I would argue that Guy does not want to kill his sister.  It's more something he agrees to do because he feels he must, and he does his best (which isn't very good...) to get out of it.  Knowing full well what John is capable of, he questions his reasoning about Isabella, and the look on his face when he sees Robin with her in the meadow is more pained than angry.  (Pained is an understatement here. This is another scene where Richard acts without words and my heart breaks for Guy. The fangirl part of me suggests adjectives like crushed, ruined, empty, and devastated, but we'll go with "pained" for now.) Even when he does eventually decide to kill her, he leaves her to drown instead of finishing her off himself.  I don't think he could have handled having the blood of another woman he supposedly cared for literally on his hands.

It's quite telling that the accusations that Guy hurls at Isabella in the forest basically consist of, "He's an OUTLAW! You PROMISED!" That, right there, is Guy of Gisborne's worldview in a nutshell.  Family, relationships, and loyalty (to him) are of supreme importance, there's a right side and a wrong side of the law (legally, not morally, mind you...), and promises mean everything.  There are so many messed up things going on in this scene.  It's fun to watch, actually, as the dynamics between the three of them shift and crackle with tension.  When Guy offers Isabella her "second chance" and Robin spits out his "Don't you wish you'd done that for Marian" line, my heart almost stopped.  (Guy does, by the way.  Wish he'd given Marian another chance.)  I don't think Guy needed Robin to point out the parallel, though.  It was already obvious to him from the moment he offered Isabella the sword.  Guy is certain that Isabella will choose him over Robin, and for once, he wants to SEE someone choose him over Robin in an irreversible way (stabbing is pretty irreversible on this show, except when it's not...).  When Guy says, "Prove to me you understand the terrible error you have made," he's not just talking to Isabella.  He's talking to Marian. 

Because this show is this show, Guy has to fail in the end.  He makes the usual villain's mistake of leaving before his prisoners are dead (though with more reason than most villains usually have... still don't think he wants to see Isabella die), and then he makes the even bigger mistake of lying to Prince John about them being dead.  (If Guy had been Vasey, he would have invited John down to the dungeons so they could taunt drowning Robin together.)  Though Guy does seem to be very entranced and happy in the moment that John names him Sheriff and gives him the keys to Nottingham, the rest of the episode doesn't seem to show him taking the kind of satisfaction one would expect him to.  Sure, he tells Robin that life is sweet and laughs along with Prince John, but in the moments when the camera is on Guy's face and no one else is watching him, that glibness and cruelty are gone, and he looks very alone and very tired. 



Like Robin, Guy is realizing that nothing has changed.   Guy put up with Vasey for years, and all of his hopes were pinned on the idea that one day, he would be free of the Sheriff's influence.  Now, having "killed" Vasey himself, he's no closer to freedom than he was before. He's also no closer to earning the trust of the people he ostensibly cares about.  This is what makes him snap at John in the end.  He can't handle one more woman betraying him, one more insane superior ordering him around and expecting the impossible from him.   So, he tells John all of the things that he's thinking instead of letting them simmer under the surface for months and years, and gets outlawed for his trouble.  I really like that final scene, actually, because as messed up as it is, it's Guy saying, "No.  I'm not going to do this again."  He doesn't have anything resembling a plan, and he'll probably regret it later, but I am so proud of him for the spine he has in that moment that I could burst. (The final fight is really fun, too... mostly because it almost puts Guy and Robin on the same "side" for a moment, against Isabella and Prince John, and it's only when the two of them are dealt with that Robin and Guy face off.  People have pointed out that it's reminiscent of some of the fight scenes in the 2nd and 3rd PotC movies, and I think they're right.  It's a comparison that makes me smile.)

The creators of this show have talked about how similar Guy and Robin are in some ways, how Guy could have been more like Robin if things had been just a little bit different.  I think that this really comes out at the end where Guy yells, "You're a dead man walking, Gisborne!"  And Guy simply responds, "It never seemed to hurt you any."  Guy is now more like Robin than ever - on the wrong side of the law, stripped of title and possessions and everything that gave him status in the world.  We'll see how long this lasts.  I, for one, want to see what Guy's like without the things that define him.



A short note about Prince John.

PJ was more sane this week, less over the top.  As much as I loved the camp in "Do You Love Me?" I also liked this toned down, wily version of the prince. I liked the subdued, quiet anger on his face when he sees Robin and Isabella.  I like the way that he plays Guy like a fine-tuned violin throughout the episode. And I LOVE his plan with the water.  It was quite smart of him, actually, horrible and wrong, but smart.  And if Robin hadn't come along and revealed that John was the one stopping the water in the first place, it might have actually had its intended effect of making the people view him as benevolent.  In the scene where he arrives in Locksley with the water, PJ reminded me of an Old West snake oil salesman, hamming it up and getting the crowd ready for his big reveal.  We already know that John loves theatrics, and so it must have irked him even more to have Robin beating him to the punch, taking the love and affection that were "rightfully his."

Even disappointed and angry, John is still the showman.  Tipping over the barrel of water in the middle of a drought is a classic display of extravagance, and the image of the water pouring out over the dust was quite effective.  (Also, other than the fact that he says "whinging" at the beginning, my favorite line of his this episode is, "Sell something... some grain, a cow, a grandparent...")

It should be interesting to see how John reacts to Isabella next week. He seems to take her back during that fight at the end, and Isabella is a master at backpedaling and telling people what they want to hear.  (I kind of love how she manipulates Guy AND John with her "weak willed woman" act when it's obvious she's anything but.)


 
It is always difficult to tell how much time has passed between episodes, but it doesn't make sense to me that Locksley and the surrounding environs went from lush and green with deep rivers running through gorges (so Robin can fall into them and not die) and nice little ponds like the one that's near where Isabella tries to hide her money to dry as a bone in a couple of weeks' time, or even a couple of months. I'm no geologist or water specialist, but don't things like that take time, even with John blocking the springs? 

This episode features the healthiest dying baby I've ever seen.  Adorable kid and all, but Tuck's adamant "that baby has a few hours to live!" stuff was laughable. 

Why do Robin and Isabella not even THINK of searching for the key that Guy dropped? It's small, yes, but also silver and shiny, and I think it even has a yellow ribbon on it…

The more I see the scene with Robin/Iz in the water, the pissier I get. "Hold me, while we're in water over our heads and it's 9 times harder to tread water and our body heat doesn't help because we're WET." COMMON SENSE FAIL.

Why do the guards recognize Tuck? The guards never recognize anyone… certainly not by NAME. Perhaps it would have been better if he hadn't pulled his hood up in plain view of the guards?

"I miss Djaq" #3952. She would have been able to find plants with hidden water, but she would not have talked about lizard pee.

I HATE IT that Robin gets all cocky in the dungeon and says, "You've forgotten one thing: I'm Robin Hood."  NO, no we haven't, Robin.  Because you won't let us.  That line makes me GLAD he failed here a couple of times before shooting his arrow through the ring.  (With a wet bowstring and wet arrows and a lot of wet dress weighing it down. *facepalm*)

Kate gets caught. Again.  And it's so routine we don't even see it happen... she's just gone. *sigh* Inevitable capture aside, Kate was pretty okay this week.  I kind of actually like that she frees herself while no one else is paying attention, and that she's the one to get Robin out of his "MUST KILL GUY" mode at the end so they can run from the guards.  Still obnoxious, but less so than she could be.

Next week:  Two weeks from now:

Guy's still angry at Isabella, the king is dead (maybe), and John is back to his wonderful camp

Comments

( 20 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]classics_lover wrote:
May. 14th, 2009 11:44 am (UTC)
THe interaction between Robin and Much was heartbreaking, but perfectly in character for Robin to not know what Much actually means</i.. Sorry, but I'm a hopeless Much/Robin slasher, and in spite of Much's crush on Kate I still believe completely that it is Robin with whom Much belongs. I don't necessarily think Robin belongs with Much, though. If that makes sense. Robin is still too much an overlord to notice Much as anything other than part of the furniture. Grrr. There is not enough for Much to do this season. I want him to have at least one outstanding episode, and it looks less and less likely that that's going to happen, more's the pity. Guy was made of win this time around. I gotta say, the whole snapping of his bonds thing was quite fantastic as a demonstration that he is just as capable of getting out of sticky situations as Robin is. And it emphasises how very alone he is that he can't call upon anyone to help him, while Robin knows someone at Clun (or Locksley, or Bonchurch or Nottingham... you get the picture) who will unshackle him. Guy is more and more isolated as the show progresses, which makes his desperate need to have Isabella on his side more and more understandable. And yay for both of them remembering Marian at all. I was wondering if they were never going to mention her again.
[info]corrielle wrote:
May. 14th, 2009 09:53 pm (UTC)
Oh, I agree with you that Robin not knowing what Much means is completely in character, but it still makes me angry at Robin. I honestly think the fault lies with the writers for not letting Robin grow up in that regard. It would have been amazing for them to have let us see Much and Robin become friends who are equals rather than friends who are master and servant (in all but name, still.)

gotta say, the whole snapping of his bonds thing was quite fantastic as a demonstration that he is just as capable of getting out of sticky situations as Robin is. And it emphasises how very alone he is that he can't call upon anyone to help him

Yes, yes, and yes. I love Guy being capable and escaping in a Robin-like fashion. I cheered for him a bit when he did that... just because Guy is so often embarrassed, it was nice to see him save himself for once. I am also nodding my head in vigorous agreement about Guy being more alone than Robin ever was. Even when he first ran into the forest, he had Much, and he had friends in Locksley and elsewhere (like the Scarlet family) from the moment he got home from the Holy Land in the first episode of the show.



[info]karen747 wrote:
May. 15th, 2009 02:37 am (UTC)
Well, clearly, I couldn't stay away....;-) And took the chance...A fantastic review, and YES to all of the above! (The Gizzie & Izzie Children's Hour is driving me nuts. Soon, I hope.)

Re: GUY **"And it emphasises how very alone he is that he can't call upon anyone to help him."**

And very interesting as this contrast is exactly what will play out in the next few eps. If Guy is truly an Outlaw, and has to fend for himself, with no support system or friends that he can call on (and clearly no help from Isabella, though I think things are not as black & white there as painted, and we may be surprised...)? What happens when someone is an Outlaw, all alone, and on their own? Hmmmm......

**"I don't think he could have handled having the blood of another woman he supposedly cared for literally on his hands."**

And yet, he sure seemed ready to run Isabella through, before she jumped into the water. Anger & adrenaline? Threat? This one puzzles me as it goes too far. Writer's desperation to keep the Marian/Isabella duality going? An anvil falling on our heads labelled "Guy is Bad and Iredeemable, Fangirls. Deal With It!"? Cuz I'm not buying that he would do so, even after having been betrayed by her and snapping and going after PJ. Guy has had too much guilt, demons, and self-loathing attached to THIS VERY ACT for far too long to make this part of the scene believeable to me. You? Thoughts?

Then again, the writer of this episode needs to shot. After they've watched BOTH seasons of RH (which I doubt they did),and all of this season, and REWROTE a chunk of this ep., because so much was senseless and absurd. Phaw!
[info]corrielle wrote:
May. 15th, 2009 11:12 pm (UTC)
Sorry I didn't write back! Keeping up with lj comments is tiring work sometimes. ;-)

Believe me, I know how it is to have fandom theories running around in one's head and crowding out all other attempts at coherent thought.

And yet, he sure seemed ready to run Isabella through, before she jumped into the water. Anger & adrenaline? Threat?

I struggled with this one too. I think you hit it on the head here, though. Anger and adrenaline, once again, were about to win out over Guy's unwillingness to hurt a woman he cared about. (Also, I'm with you on the "poor writing" thing. If it was an intentional slap to the collective face of the Guy/Marian part of the fandom, it was badly done.)
[info]karen747 wrote:
May. 15th, 2009 11:41 pm (UTC)
That's okay, I understand - and agree! ;-)
The GizKids are almost starting to annoy me now, so I've got to get it down sometime this weekend - but it's packed between a Celtic Fair, a Green Home tour, massive housecleaning, getting some tomatos in the ground, and going to a CSA organic dinner on Sun night. Where are the Giz kids going to fit in? Somewhere lets hope. ;-)

Anger & adrenaline - ohh, Guy...Sigh
[info]bookishy wrote:
May. 15th, 2009 12:51 pm (UTC)
You always make so many wonderful points that I never know quite where to start. As always, your character analysis here is perfect--it's so perfect, that it's kind of a helpful fanfic writer's tool, honestly.

I am probably projecting onto Robin's relationship with Isabella, but I did actually like the way it was handled in this episode. While it was wrong of Robin to "lead Isabella on," so to speak, I can't really fault him for it. That's primarily because we at least got some indication of how he's decided to deal with Marian's absence ("I just want to forget"), and one way to do that is to jump into the next flirtation, even if it's doomed to fail. And I think it did fail in this episode, mainly because I took his expression during Isabella's speech to be an understanding that not only would he not have that kind of life with Isabella, he wouldn't have that kind of life with Marian and it made him genuinely sorrowful. I saw his immediate retreat into "having to be Robin Hood" as a retreat away from something that stirred up feelings that he didn't really want to deal with yet, and I liked that.

But then you have his: "You made me think we had a future together" and that blows that theory a little to hell. BUT I don't think it does so entirely--Robin always says stupid crap when he's angry, and you might accuse people of things that you don't actually care all that much about, but, you know, it's something to throw at someone.

What am I supposed to take away from this interaction? Because I took that Isabella was right and Robin is a well-meaning by extraordinarily chauvinistic young man who knows less than nothing about women.
This, however. . . this is what made me want to slap him again. Why do they write him like this, why? This is why I squee more about the man who STABS PEOPLE willynilly than I do with the hero. Because at least he doesn't say dumb crap like this. I mean, he says a lot of dumb crap, but then you just sort of feel bad because it's dumb and he doesn't know it. With Robin, you get the feeling that you're supposed to think it's clever.

That, right there, is Guy of Gisborne's worldview in a nutshell. Family, relationships, and loyalty (to him) are of supreme importance, there's a right side and a wrong side of the law (legally, not morally, mind you...), and promises mean everything.
YES. [info]hulamoth and I once had a discussion about why Marian still had any sympathy for Guy at the end of the second season after all the house-burning, incidental stabbing, etc. and I made the argument that maybe she has picked up on what I seem to feel, which is that most of Guy's bad behavior occurs when he feels justified beneath Vasey's law. He hits her father when he thinks they are traitors, he burns the house when he is coming to arrest them. I don't know if he would do these things if he didn't feel that he had a "right" to. But that really is Guy's problem, that he doesn't examine or doesn't care about law or justice in a higher sense. Also, he's greedy. But for Marian, I felt maybe she thought that if Guy could just be turned politically, then he would be a better person.

All of this discussion about words and saying things aloud pretty much wrote the main conversation for the next Fallout chapter, btw, so THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

My favorite thing about the episode, though, was that Marian was all over it even if she was only mentioned three times. And you're right about the first triple fight scene in the woods. Guy was getting a chance to enact what I'm sure he's been fantasizing about ever since they returned from the Holy Land, where Marian says that she was wrong and that she's loyal to him and then proves it by killing Robin. It was like "A Play in One Act: By Guy of Gisborne."
[info]corrielle wrote:
May. 15th, 2009 11:28 pm (UTC)
While it was wrong of Robin to "lead Isabella on," so to speak, I can't really fault him for it. That's primarily because we at least got some indication of how he's decided to deal with Marian's absence ("I just want to forget"), and one way to do that is to jump into the next flirtation, even if it's doomed to fail.

When you put it that way, I'm much less angry at him. I'm also willing to get on board the "Robin says stupid things when he's angry" train.

I mean, he says a lot of dumb crap, but then you just sort of feel bad because it's dumb and he doesn't know it. With Robin, you get the feeling that you're supposed to think it's clever.

YES. You have just put your finger on what bothers me about Robin. Not that he's immature, not that he says incredibly dumb things a whole lot, but that the writers don't seem to realize it and seem to think their audience finds his immaturity roguish and endearing. And also... (here come a whole load of actor-bias) I think that Richard pulls off lines that could be equally obnoxious with an utterly serious non-awareness of just how WRONG Guy's thought process is.

most of Guy's bad behavior occurs when he feels justified beneath Vasey's law

This makes a lot of sense. I'm trying to think of something really awful he's done (other than killing Marian) that wasn't on Vasey's orders. I'm probably remembering things in a positive light, but I can come up with more good things Guy's done of his own volition than bad ones. (Not killing small children in Childhood, having Kate thrown out of the castle rather than hanging her in... the first episode Kate was in, etc. Yes, these are good things. Using that special Gisborne-scale of yours they are, anyway...)

All of this discussion about words and saying things aloud pretty much wrote the main conversation for the next Fallout chapter, btw, so THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

You are so very welcome. I am happier than I can express knowing something I said was helpful the the creative process of one of my favorite fics ever.

It was like "A Play in One Act: By Guy of Gisborne."

*snerk* Yes, yes it was... I would be laughing much harder right now if it wasn't so gosh darned TRUE.


[info]karen747 wrote:
May. 16th, 2009 01:42 am (UTC)
**...the writers don't seem to realize it and seem to think their audience finds his (Robin's)immaturity roguish and endearing. And also... (here come a whole load of actor-bias) I think that Richard pulls off lines that could be equally obnoxious with an utterly serious non-awareness of just how WRONG Guy's thought process is. **

EXACTLY!!!! THANK YOU!!! On both points!! (enough exclamation points? ;-) So, to summarize:

1.) We, the audience, are saddled with Writers who don't understand their audience or their characters, and clearly don't care that the lines they're feeding the title character make most of us want to punch him in the nose.

2.) The writers are blessed with a far stronger actor than the title actor, delivering what he knows are bad lines, but also knowing that if they are real and true to the character, it's his job to go for it. Thank you, Richard Armitage! Some of us are only watching this show to see what you do..not just for the pretty (love the hair, though), but because watching you is like sitting in a Master Class. Bravo. Should be required viewing by all first year drama students, to see can still be done/manifest, even with an utterly crap script. No excuses allowed.

Jonas, in contrast, is delivering what is written, in a boyish way and thinks that makes everything okay. He seems to think that this really is Robin Hood, which to me is disturbing. I don't get the feeling that he's ever argued with the writers or producers about the finer points of his character (he was just along for the ride) - only about not wearing tight pants in a S1 fight scene because they'd make him look gay, and very likely being a primadonna about how much screen time Guy/Marian were getting in S2.

On a related topic...:
The more I think about it, the entire exit of Lucy Giffiths really is odd. Something is just "off" there. It feels wrong. And clearly Richard still doesn't agree with Marian's death, but is professional and tries to keep it together in interviews. And he really doesn't exhibit any unhappiness or negativity towards Lucy, which is interesting... then he sidesteps and moves on. Smart man.

And what's really odd is, what title character (or lead actor) does NOT do the DVD audio commentaries, of the season finale, when the supposed "love of his life" is killed off? (No Jonas audio commentaries AT ALL in S2.) Hmmmm. I don't like it. And as time passes, I am believing the "Lucy left us to do other things" party line, less and less. I'm more inclined to think that Jonas, in a fit of insecurity and rampant jealousy of Richard & Lucy's storline, whinged and whined and possibly issued an ultimatum of some kind. The jealousy towards Richard is subtle but absolutely there in the S1 audio commentaries. If I'm honest, it really helped to ratchet up my Jonas-dislike. Thoughts, folks?
[info]ravenya03 wrote:
May. 19th, 2009 09:52 am (UTC)
In regards to how/why Lucy left, I still have no idea, as there are so many conflicting reports on the subject. However, I am reasonably convinced by Armitage's reaction to it, as well as the strange silence on the subject from the rest of the cast (suggesting that they've been warned to keep their mouths shut), that it was in fact an executive decision, rather than Lucy wanting to leave.

I saw an interview with RA in which the female presenter says: "They've killed Maid Marian - it's beyond me!" RA gives a wry little laugh and says: "It's beyond me too."

Now, this doesn't seem like the type of comment that someone would make if Lucy CHOSE to leave the show. If that was the case, surely the reaction to statement would have been something like: "It couldn't be helped," or something along those lines.

Act to that the fact that despite the press release that Lucy was going to "explore possibilities in Hollywood", we haven't heard hide nor hair of her since she left. Last I heard, she was providing the voice to a video-game.

I think most people believe that Lucy left of her own volition, simply because they cannot believe a professional writing team would be stupid enough to kill off the central character who provided the motivation to the *other* two main characters.

As to whether Jonas had anything to do with this...well, all I can say is that he seemed like a reasonably easy-going guy in his interviews. He certainly doesn't come across as the type to throw a hissy fit, and yet I suppose we'll never know. Hopefully once all this is over, a cast member will come forward with a tell-all interview that explains just WTF was going on.
[info]karen747 wrote:
May. 19th, 2009 05:25 pm (UTC)
Exactly! I saw the same RA interview, and that phrase struck me at the time as odd/off, especially when one considers that the interview in March 2009 was done what, 1 1/2 years after the Marian death taping? So he clearly still has issues with it but is professional about it.

And I think Lucy, according to IMDB, has one project with David Morrisey that's done and "in the can." And Jonas may come across as easy-going in interviews, but after listening to the S1 audio commentaries, I think he's not quite as he appears. Or at least not fully able to cover his true feelings in a non-acting setting. There's a slight but definite undercurrent of jealousy there directed at Richard (a few statements which are tossed out). I'm willing to allow that perhaps I am reading into it, but I truly don't think so, as I don't think I'm alone in this.

And Jonas' non-appearance on the four audio commentaries of S2 is beyond odd. It's simply not done. Especially considering the ego of an actor, and the fact that he's the lead? I'm sure "Oh, conflicting schedules!" would be used as a (pretty poor) excuse, that I simply don't buy. For me its a case of looking not at what everyone is saying, but what everyone is doing. Rather telling. And I agree with you. I'm sure in 3-5 years, someone will say something. We can but hope, Fingers-crossed. I would be nice so that the fandom could have some closure.
[info]ravenya03 wrote:
May. 19th, 2009 09:33 pm (UTC)
Jonas not appearing on the commentaries is indeed odd.

I think that the main contributors to the commentaries were Lucy and Richard, Anjali and Sam, and Gordon, which is an interesting choice. I have no idea what criteria is involved in inviting cast members to provide commentary, but it does seem that these five individuals made up the most charismatic of the cast, as well as those that got on the best.

Lucy and Richard obviously adored each other, and Sam and Anjali got on like a house on fire, even judging from Much/Djaq's interaction on screen, which came across as very warm and natural in regards to their body language (like Much resting his hand on her shoulder in "Lardner's Ring" and reaching out to help her across the camp in "Walkabout"). On the commentaries they're always joking and laughing with each other. (I firmly believe that Sam had a little crush on Anjali). And Gordon obviously provides the laughs, and seems the type of guy who gets on with everyone.

Jonas does seem to be a very strange omission.
[info]bryar127 wrote:
May. 16th, 2009 12:25 am (UTC)
"I'm trying to think of something really awful he's done (other than killing Marian) that wasn't on Vasey's orders."

Er... leaving his baby to die in the woods?

"And he's erasing what little canon validity my 'ship had, which, while irrelevant, makes me irrationally angry"

Yea, I'm not sure if the writers have decided that Marian NEVER encouraged Guy. I thought that the whole point of her being in the castle was to use his feelings for her to get info? But perhaps they have now decided that he was delusional? I don't think she loved him, but she definitely did suggest to him that she might someday. She mainly encouraged Guy during situations where she was trying to save her own life or Robin's (after Guy learned she was the NW and the time she kissed him to distract him), so perhaps it isn't quite fair to blame her for manipulating him those times. Still, it's one thing to say that she never truly cared for Guy and another to attempt to argue that she never led him to believe that she cared. I really don't know what to make of that comment by Robin.

I love these entries. I feel like I haven't fully processed what happened in an episode until I read what you post later in the week, so thank you.
[info]corrielle wrote:
May. 16th, 2009 12:50 am (UTC)
You're very welcome! Thank you for your kind comment!

Er... leaving his baby to die in the woods?

Ah yes... there is that. *sighs* I did admit that I was probably remembering the good things and blocking the bad... I'm glad this got brought up, though. It IS one of the worst, most self-serving things that Guy does, and there's really no excuse for it. I can't even try, and I have years of experience making excuses for villains. However, I think that we have to look at where this event falls. It happens in 1x04, back before Marian started to exert a serious amount of influence over him. I like to think that faced with a similar situation, the Guy we meet in series 2 would have made different choices.

As for the "Did Marian encourage Guy?" question, I think that my problem is not with Marian or her motivation. I don't blame her for the way she used Guy, though it makes me sad for his sake. What I can't get my mind around is ROBIN's take on the situation. If they writers have indeed decided she never encouraged Guy, they're full of it, especially since it's been established that Robin KNOWS that she was in the castle playing off of Guy's emotions every chance she got! He even worried that she felt for Guy too much, and yet now his tune has changed to "she never meant anything by it." I think it's ROBIN who's having a case of selective memory now.

[info]karen747 wrote:
May. 16th, 2009 01:48 am (UTC)
**"...I think it's ROBIN who's having a case of selective memory now."**

In a word, YES! Indulging in revisionist history. Absolutely.
[info]ravenya03 wrote:
May. 18th, 2009 07:46 am (UTC)
As usual, your comments are so amazingly in-depth and intriguing that I never know where to start. Usually, I just lurk, because I know I can never do them justice!

I think you're very kind when you call Robin/Izzy "uneven." I found it erratic and incomprehensible! As you pointed out, the relationship seemed to be something slightly different in every scene we saw them in, and I really can't figure out where their heads were during the entire scenario.

Every storytelling decision comes down to: what are the writers attempting to achieve with this?

Ultimately, it felt as though we were being asked to hold up Izzy in comparison with - not Marian - but Kate as a viable love interest.

There was no other reason to have Kate present for the Robin/Iz confrontation, as well as the fact that it was Rob's decision to free Kate that was part of the reason that led to Izzy turning on him.

And then there was that composition of the final scene, in which Robin turns his longing gaze from the family...directly to Kate.

It *feels* as though the whole Robin/Izzy deal was meant to be a reflection of Marian/Guy. There was plenty of chemistry and heat, but these things are big No-Nos in the land of family-viewing. So we're going to get a Rob/Kate romance instead, because Kate is the good-girl, and Izzy is too dark. It's the "fiesty" village maiden versus the seductress that eats "juicy" strawberries and tries to tempt Robin away from his path as England's saviour (way to hit us with the symbolism there writers).

So it was a good thing that Kate was there to remind him of his prerogatives. And then kiss him afterwards. (I've said it before, and I've said it again. This show has no idea how to write women characters. They try to be PC, and just come across as hopelessly sexist instead. They're not doing it on purpose, but my inner-feminist that I try to keep chained up because it scares my boyfriend is screaming with despair right now).

To be honest, I won't mind Robin/Kate, but only because 1) it means Allan is safe (all I want now is for him to emerge from this series unscathed, and with enough room for me to pretend that he heads back to Acre), 2) my evil-side will enjoy watching the forums explode with rage.

Also - I've been mentioning this on every single blog and discussion board that I can find because it still hasn't stopped being hysterically funny:

Kate gets captured. The outlaws realize this. And then...oh god...they just leave her to it! HAHAHAHA! I mean, there's no getting around this epic plot-hole. It didn't take four men to escort a family to a river, and yet John, Allan, Much and Tuck just leave Kate to certain death. WTF writers? I mean, I don't like her either, but I wouldn't have expected the outlaws to be THAT callous!
[info]corrielle wrote:
May. 19th, 2009 12:45 am (UTC)
Every storytelling decision comes down to: what are the writers attempting to achieve with this?

Ultimately, it felt as though we were being asked to hold up Izzy in comparison with - not Marian - but Kate as a viable love interest.


Wow. That is an angle that had not occurred to me, but now that you point it out so perceptively, it makes a terrible kind of sense for Isabella to be to Robin what Guy was to Marian... an attractive, overtly sexual (or as close as one gets to overtly sexual on a kids show), morally ambiguous character who briefly holds the attention of the hero(ine) before he (or she) realizes where his or her affections SHOULD lie (which is, of course, with the other squeaky clean character). It's... almost Victorian, both in its preachiness and its willful ignorance of the rampant amount of sexual tension lurking at the edges of its carefully proscribed textual boundaries. (And in a completely unrelated note, I now have images of Marian feeding Guy strawberries that won't go away. This was most likely NOT what the authors intended.)

Kate gets captured. The outlaws realize this. And then...oh god...they just leave her to it!

*snerk* That is indeed hilarious. They DO, don't they? Even Much, who, if I remember correctly, talks about how he'd do anything for her, and he would have done something if he'd been there, seems to be content to walk along and let her stay captured. Maybe they're all suffering from sun-stroke and too addled to care? Maybe they all knew that Robin would take care of it because he always does?

[info]ravenya03 wrote:
May. 19th, 2009 01:25 am (UTC)
It's... almost Victorian, both in its preachiness and its willful ignorance of the rampant amount of sexual tension lurking at the edges of its carefully proscribed textual boundaries.

Yes, it's VERY Victorian. Add to the fact that Izzy was a Gisbourne, and I really don't think that the comparison with Guy/Marian can be a coincidence. And yes, there is definitely the sense that sex=evil in this context.

Even Robin/Marian shippers concede that Marian had more chemistry with Guy; and that Robin certainly never kissed Marian like he kissed Izzy! And yet these relationships were doomed because they were (according to the writers, at least) based on lust. And the funny thing is, Robin/Kate have even LESS chemistry than Robin/Marian and about a thousand times less reason for the audience to ship them, but the writers are going to push for it anyway, because despite how fantastically irritating she is, Kate is also the "good girl".

I could write a dissertation on all this, but I'll just point to the fact that Marian died a very erotized death (and no, I'm not over-analysing this; Foz Allen and Dominic Mingella *specifically* point out that the way in which her death was staged was meant to be symbolic of a sexual encounter. I think their exact words were: "by *having* her, he [Guy] killed her.") and the fact that many viewers reacted to Marian's death with the general feeling that she deserved it because she'd been leading Guy on. It all points to a very unhealthy message being brought across. And the sad thing is, the writers/creators have no idea that they're even doing it.

Maybe they're all suffering from sun-stroke and too addled to care?

I'm fond of the theory that they've been reading up on Darwinism. I mean, how many times has Kate been captured/injured due to her own stupidity? Natural selection is clearly trying to remove her from the gene pool.
[info]ravenya03 wrote:
May. 19th, 2009 01:30 am (UTC)
Ooh, and come to think of it, perhaps this is where Robin's line about Marian never encouraging Guy comes from. The writers are trying to belatedly make Marian out to be snowy-white, in Robin's mind if not in ours.
[info]karen747 wrote:
May. 19th, 2009 01:54 am (UTC)
***Natural selection is clearly trying to remove her from the gene pool.****
LOL!!!!!! Absolutely! Thanks for the luagh. I really need it tonight and totally agree.
[info]endcredits wrote:
May. 19th, 2009 05:17 pm (UTC)
I now have images of Marian feeding Guy strawberries that won't go away.

Sneaking in here to say: have you read [info]an_lagat_glas's ficlet, Blackberries? Not strawberries, I know, but close enough!

And I realise I haven't commented on your (as usual) fabulous, fabulous, thought-provoking review of the episode. I just wanted you to know that it made me flailsome and brain-explodey—particularly your thoughts on Isabella, and her relationship with Guy. Alas, I haven't been able to comment properly— I've been banning myself from LJ due to work/college commitments. (If only I could get paid/get degree credits for jabbering about things on the tellybox; life would be sweet.)
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